Transgendered Driver License

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Transgendered Driver License

A Tennessee-based transgender woman says she went topless in the parking lot of a local DMV in an effort to fight for her rights.

As WATE.com is reporting, Andrea Jones was arrested for indecent exposure after taking her shirt off after the Morristown Driver's License Office refused to change her sex from male to female on her driver's license.

"If I was a male, I had the right to, when I stepped out the door, take off my shirt," Jones, who has had a partial sex change, explained. "It's not right for the state to ask me to be both male and female. A choice needs to be made. They cannot hold me to both standards."

The police report referred to Jones as a man, The Advocate notes: "Mr. Jones continued to yell that he had the right to show his breasts in public,and wanted to be recognized as a female."

Jones is not the only LGBT person to encounter driver's license trouble in recent weeks. Earlier this month, a Florida-based lesbian couple were rejected after applying to change their last names in Florida although they had proper documentation of their Connecticut marriage and Social Security cards bearing their names.

Should she (or he) be held to a double standard and obey the rules of a male and female in society? What do you think?

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I have to question what a 'partial' sex change means? I really have no idea. If she had a full sex change and now is fully female, then it should be changed, and she should be referred to as a female on all documentation, but its hard to say in this situation. The stats on a drivers license are used for identification purposes, so I am tempted to say that if she has breasts, a cop on the side of the road would see her as female and so that is how it should read, however, if her sex organs are still male, then if she was in a serious accident where unconsciousness or death was involved, she would probably be identified by medical personnel as male and if her license said female it would take longer to identify her and contact her family.

I am almost tempted to say there needs to be a new licensing designation for people in this situation.

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I'm also confused on the "partial sex change". I actually work with a woman who used to be a male. I know after her sex change she received papers from her surgeon saying that she underwent sex reassignment surgery and that was all she needed to change EVERYTHING to female. Including her birth certificate. So unless you have that paper, I think you have to go by what your birth certificate says. But I don't konw what the laws really are, that's just my thought on it.

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I think that it should stay the same gender on the license until the full sex change is completed. I don't see this as any different than when a couple years ago they claimed a man to give birth. Well while he called himself a man and he looked like a man in a public setting, all the female organs were there to allow "him" to deliver. Had he done the full operation, he couldn't have done that. However, I do think they have a very valid point about the double standard in what is considered indecent exposure.

As for the lesbian couple, there is no reason why the DMV refused to change their legal names. DMV has nothing to do with recognizing marriages - they're not the Recorder's Office. If they have a legal document (in this case a certified marriage certificate) and SSA accepted this, they should be changing the person's name. I doubt they would've rejected it if they went to the courthouse in CT to get married and showed the court document of the name change.

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I think I am most curious that she was charged with indecent exposure as a male.

If a male took his shirt off in public, they wouldn't be charged with indecent exposure, but a female would.

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"elleon17" wrote:

I think I am most curious that she was charged with indecent exposure as a male.

If a male took his shirt off in public, they wouldn't be charged with indecent exposure, but a female would.

I've always been curious about this as well. Some man boobs are much larger than some women's. Why does our society find it acceptable for these men to publicly undress their shirts, yet women can not? Why does our society so heavily view women's breasts to be more sexual in nature?

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"elleon17" wrote:

I think I am most curious that she was charged with indecent exposure as a male.

If a male took his shirt off in public, they wouldn't be charged with indecent exposure, but a female would.

Most probably because the "partial" sex change includes either female hormone injections to "grow" larger breasts and/or breast implants in combination.

I agree with the others who say the drivers license....just like the birth certificate....should not be changed until AFTER the totality (actual genital and reproductive changes) of gender reassignment has been completed. IMV, until then, it might be a good idea tho to place a "T" on their license where the M or F usually is for authorities. :shrug:

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I think that the method of protest is genius!

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Until the fully surgery is complete, the DL should read the same as the birth cert.

As for a double standard. I don't know. I think he is living a double standard and it is reasonable to expect him to follow societal rules for both genders while straddling the two.

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Personally I always find these extreme methods/forms to fight for one's rights (in almost any gripe) as very immature, self centered, self absorbed, disrespectful and downright obnoxious. I can't find anything genious or wonderful in regards to the total disrespect and disregard of OTHER people's rights who were present at the MV that day or basically society in general.

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"LuckyMom" wrote:

Personally I always find these extreme methods/forms to fight for one's rights (in almost any gripe) as very immature, self centered, self absorbed, disrespectful and downright obnoxious. I can't find anything genious or wonderful in regards to the total disrespect and disregard of OTHER people's rights who were present at the MV that day or basically society in general.

So you don't support the right of Americans to protest? How would this man taking off his shirt disrespect or disregard your rights, had you been there?

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Ummm. They change their birth certificates? Why? Most transgender people are born one sex, right? The operation doesn't change what they were when they were born. I also didn't get my name changed on my birth certificate when I got married.

I think it was a great way to protest as long as the sex change is complete to the point where he's mostly male. If it's not, then he's just being obnoxious and needs to wait until he's actually a she.

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"Potter75" wrote:

So you don't support the right of Americans to protest? How would this man taking off his shirt disrespect or disregard your rights, had you been there?

Sure I support the right to protest. I just don't support extreme or illegal or disrespectful methods/forms of doing so where it tromps on the rights of others. There are certainly non extreme, legal and respectful forms as alternatives. IMV if someone chooses NOT to implement those and resort to extremes, I do view them as I described in my post above.
AS well, genious is just not a definition I personally would use pertaining to a method that almost always guarantees arrest, a guilty verdict, a fine and a record under our law as well as all the other negative personality traits previously described. Just counter productive IMV and adds nothing and detracts from, the issue.

The point is how this person used an extreme method without regard or respect for the rights of other people in that environment or society in general it appears, not how it would have impacted me personally as an individual if I were there. Some people may feel they are the center of the universe and only THEIR rights are legitimate....I am just not one of them.

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"kris_w" wrote:

Until the fully surgery is complete, the DL should read the same as the birth cert.

As for a double standard. I don't know. I think he is living a double standard and it is reasonable to expect him to follow societal rules for both genders while straddling the two.

Yep....agreed.

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"LuckyMom" wrote:

Sure I support the right to protest. I just don't support extreme or illegal or disrespectful methods/forms of doing so where it tromps on the rights of others. There are certainly non extreme, legal and respectful forms as alternatives. IMV if someone chooses NOT to implement those and resort to extremes, I do view them as I described in my post above.
AS well, genious is just not a definition I personally would use pertaining to a method that almost always guarantees arrest, a guilty verdict, a fine and a record under our law as well as all the other negative personality traits previously described. Just counter productive IMV and adds nothing and detracts from, the issue.

The point is how this person used an extreme method without regard or respect for the rights of other people in that environment or society in general it appears, not how it would have impacted me personally as an individual if I were there. Some people may feel they are the center of the universe and only THEIR rights are legitimate....I am just not one of them.

Presumably he knew and accepted the consequences of his action, and accepted them. I call it genius (not genious) because it drew national attention to his plight and the double standard contained in the law. Pretty shrewd, if ones goal is to draw attention to a perceived inequality under the law. Hard to argue that his plan wasn't effective, even if you personally don't like it.

First bolded, what laws did he tromp on? If the law declares him a male, he has the legal right to be bare chested in public. Could you elaborate on this rights tromping?

I have no idea what your third bolded means. How did he disrespect society in general, exactly?

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"wlillie" wrote:

Ummm. They change their birth certificates? Why? Most transgender people are born one sex, right? The operation doesn't change what they were when they were born. I also didn't get my name changed on my birth certificate when I got married.

I think it was a great way to protest as long as the sex change is complete to the point where he's mostly male. If it's not, then he's just being obnoxious and needs to wait until he's actually a she.

I always thought this was odd too. Then I met a woman who used to be a man. Your license has to match your birth certificate. So while she was born a man, she is now legally a woman and all documentation states as such. She even had to put it in the paper that she was changing sexes and her name change. Not sure if that is federal law or state law.

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"LuckyMom" wrote:

Personally I always find these extreme methods/forms to fight for one's rights (in almost any gripe) as very immature, self centered, self absorbed, disrespectful and downright obnoxious. I can't find anything genious or wonderful in regards to the total disrespect and disregard of OTHER people's rights who were present at the MV that day or basically society in general.

I'm not seeing what was so extreme. The DMV said he was a male and given his right to remove his shirt in the parking lot he did so as a male. Why should he have been arrested for indecent exposure. I've seen plenty of men with man tatas and they aren't arrested for being shirtless.

I think it was a great move to prove a point.

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Was he dressed as a man or a woman? I'm going to assume he is taking the hormones, and acting like a woman while he waits on the surgery to complete the transformation. If that is the case, he can't really throw a hissy fit until the sex change is complete. It's like graduating high school. You can't graduate until you've finished everything; can't get mad that people aren't calling you a graduate just because you're working on your degree. And if his top body, and his clothes are all female, then it was illegal for him to expose his boobs.

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"wlillie" wrote:

And if his top body, and his clothes are all female, then it was illegal for him to expose his boobs.

But he was charged as a male on the police report and it is not illegal for a man to take off his shirt regardless of size (meaning he could have boobs too)

If he was being viewed as a male even to the police, why was he arrested for indecent exposure? disturbance of the piece I get, but the other I don't. I don' t think you can have it both ways. He is a male to the police, but needs to abide to the laws pertaining to woment because he wore some makeup and has tatas.

If a male not trying to change gender were to get breast implants, would he now transform his chest into something that is indecent when exposed? I'm really curious about this topic and why what is essentially the same thing on a male and female with the exception of mammory glands is so taboo on one and benign for the other?

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"elleon17" wrote:

But he was charged as a male on the police report and it is not illegal for a man to take off his shirt regardless of size (meaning he could have boobs too)

But it's not the cops or the DMV that is causing all this mess. He is in the middle of trying to make himself into something, but he's not there yet. Unfortunately, he's in a position where he is between being female and male. You can't get mad at having to follow both sets of rules if you make it to where both sets of rules apply to you. He did. If he'd been wearing male clothing and hadn't had breasts (I've seen male tata's like you guys keep talking about and it's always obvious they are male and not female) then he wouldn't have got charged. They probably booked him on his license which said male despite how he looked.

He put himself into this position.

eta-to the last question, Yes if he was acting and otherwise looked female.

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In response to our inquiry, the Tennessee Department of Safety says they'll change the sex on a license "if an applicant presents a doctor's statement indicating that a full sex change has occurred and the procedure is complete."

http://www.wate.com/story/16039917/morristown-transgendered-woman-says-she-went-topless-to-make-a-statement

It seems like the social security office didn't care that he still has a penis while the DMV does. Maybe they should get together and try to make the policies coordinate before they have another angry transgender individual making the news.

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"Potter75" wrote:

Presumably he knew and accepted the consequences of his action, and accepted them. I call it genius (not genious) because it drew national attention to his plight and the double standard contained in the law. Pretty shrewd, if ones goal is to draw attention to a perceived inequality under the law. Hard to argue that his plan wasn't effective, even if you personally don't like it.

OK it's also ineffective to be petty but if you really want to go there, take a second look at your first sentence before you spell check/correct others. So let's end it now OK. Thanks.

In regard to drawing attention......yes I can argue how effective it was.....it was effective in getting negative reactions of some people and himself charged and arrested, another negative.....that's about it. These extreme acts to protest are just ineffective and negative anymore to the cause IMV. It's also not a shrewd plan when it's been done a bazillion times before and looked upon as a negative and obnoxious act rather than having the opposite effect.

First bolded, what laws did he tromp on? If the law declares him a male, he has the legal right to be bare chested in public. Could you elaborate on this rights tromping?

I have no idea what your third bolded means. How did he disrespect society in general, exactly?

As I agreed with kris_w......by actually living a double standard himself, it is reasonable to expect him to follow societal rules for both genders while straddling the two. I couldn't agree more with that statement. This IMV also is not an UNreasonable expectation/desire BY others in the rest of our society for someone in his situation.
Lastly, if you don't understand or adhere to the notion of "Some people may feel they are the center of the universe and only THEIR rights are legitimate....I am just not one of them." then no point in trying to explain it further. :shrug:

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"wlillie" wrote:

In response to our inquiry, the Tennessee Department of Safety says they'll change the sex on a license "if an applicant presents a doctor's statement indicating that a full sex change has occurred and the procedure is complete."

http://www.wate.com/story/16039917/morristown-transgendered-woman-says-she-went-topless-to-make-a-statement

It seems like the social security office didn't care that he still has a penis while the DMV does. Maybe they should get together and try to make the policies coordinate before they have another angry transgender individual making the news.

I think you're getting the stories mixed up. SSA didn't change him to a her yet either. SSA changed the other couple's last names because of their marriage certificate.

But I do think that Andrea does have a valid point. If the Govt doesn't recognize him as female, they really have no reason to arrest him for indecent exposure for simply taking off a shirt. Disorderly conduct, maybe, depending on his behavior but not indecent exposure. As for male tatas, I've seen many that easily could be viewed the same as females - some seriously needing support. Why aren't they arresting these individuals as well?

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Here's Tennessee's Laws... I'm not seeing where he violated it... ordinarily, people are not offended by men's bare chests.

Other Sexual Offenses. In Tennessee, “sexual offenses” include crimes against persons such as rape and sexual battery, as well as offenses against public morality such as public indecency, indecent exposure and prostitution, all of which are Class B misdemeanors. See T.C.A. § 39-13-501 et seq. Public indecency is defined by the following statute:
A person commits the offense of public indecency who, in a public place … knowingly or intentionally: (i) Engages in sexual intercourse, masturbation, sodomy, bestiality, oral copulation, flagellation, excretory functions or other ultimate sex acts; (ii) Appears in a state of nudity; or (iii) Fondles the genitals of such person, or another person. T.C.A. § 39-13-511(a).

Under the statute, a “public place” is “any location frequented by the public, or where the public is present or likely to be present, or where a person may reasonably be expected to be observed by members of the public.” §39-13-511(a)(2)(B). “Nudity” refers to
“the showing of the bare human male or female genitals or pubic area with less than a fully opaque covering, the showing of the female breast with less than a fully opaque covering of the areola, or the showing of the covered male genitals in a discernibly turgid state.” T.C.A. § 39-13-511(a)(2)(A).

“Indecent exposure” occurs when a person “who, in a public place or on the private premises of another, or so near thereto as to be seen from such private premises: (i) Exposes such person’s genitals or buttocks to one or more persons; or (ii) Engages in sexual contact or sexual penetration…” when the person “reasonably expects the acts will be viewed by another and such acts: (i) Will offend an ordinary viewing person; or (ii) Are for the purpose of sexual arousal and gratification of the defendant.” T.C.A. § 39-13-511(b)(1).

http://web.utk.edu/~scheb/overview.html

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what is essentially the same thing on a male and female with the exception of mammory glands is so taboo on one and benign for the other?

uh oh...watch out....you may get a spell check too. Lol

"wlillie" wrote:

You can't get mad at having to follow both sets of rules if you make it to where both sets of rules apply to you. He did. If he'd been wearing male clothing and hadn't had breasts (I've seen male tata's like you guys keep talking about and it's always obvious they are male and not female) then he wouldn't have got charged. They probably booked him on his license which said male despite how he looked.

He put himself into this position.

eta-to the last question, Yes if he was acting and otherwise looked female.

This

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"Beertje" wrote:

I think you're getting the stories mixed up. SSA didn't change him to a her yet either. SSA changed the other couple's last names because of their marriage certificate.

Jones, a transgender woman, had a partial sex change and says that was all the Social Security office needed to switch her paperwork from male to female.

No, I'm not. Wink

eta-I've had a friend who took his shirt off in a public place and was told to put it back on and was arrested for indecent exposure when he didn't. I was drunk so the details are foggy, but it's not the same anyway. This man is dressed like a woman with the top half of him looking like a woman. He needs to behave appropriately since he chose to live like this. It is not the DMV's fault he decided to keep his penis AND get female breasts. You can't have it both ways where you get the benefits of being a man AND the benefits of being a woman and not expect to have to follow the rules for both. It's Wrong.

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"LuckyMom" wrote:

OK it's also ineffective to be petty but if you really want to go there, take a second look at your first sentence before you spell check/correct others. So let's end it now OK. Thanks.

In regard to drawing attention......yes I can argue how effective it was.....it was effective in getting negative reactions of some people and himself charged and arrested, another negative.....that's about it. These extreme acts to protest are just ineffective and negative anymore to the cause IMV. It's also not a shrewd plan when it's been done a bazillion times before and looked upon as a negative and obnoxious act rather than having the opposite effect.

As I agreed with kris_w......by actually living a double standard himself, it is reasonable to expect him to follow societal rules for both genders while straddling the two. I couldn't agree more with that statement. This IMV also is not an UNreasonable expectation/desire BY others in the rest of our society for someone in his situation.
Lastly, if you don't understand or adhere to the notion of "Some people may feel they are the center of the universe and only THEIR rights are legitimate....I am just not one of them." then no point in trying to explain it further. :shrug:

If you think that it is ineffective to be petty, why do you do it? Weird. I think that it is funny to spell genious wrong. Just cute little irony. Sorry you found it petty.

Really? It's been done a bazillion times before? I don't remember reading about this.

You look upon it as negative and obnoxious, not everyone.

You don't think that the right to be determined one gender or the other by the state is a legitimate one? I guess you could try to explain that further. Further, you think that your right to not have to "witness" this is bigger or greater than their right to protest it? Well, sounds like you think that you are the center of the universe.

Welcome back, lucky.

ETA: I agree with Kris as well. I think that there are many areas which are going to be difficult for TG people to navigate in a world of black and white "male and female". That is just logical. I also am open minded enough to understand this persons frustration. I think that he chose a manner of drawing public attention to his situation which made sense and did an effective job of pointing out the double standard that he felt society was imposing upon him.

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Lol

If you think that it is ineffective to be petty, why do you do it? Weird. I think that it is funny to spell genious wrong. Just cute little irony. Sorry you found it petty.
you seemed to have such a dire "need" to go there that I just couldn't resist accomodating you. Lol

Really? It's been done a bazillion times before? I don't remember reading about this.
ummmm......you gotta think outside the box here potter.......meaning THIS type issue in addition to all the other perceived inequalities of certain segments of our society. The radical/extreme antics/displays of protest are really "old" and frankly boring now.

You look upon it as negative and obnoxious, not everyone.
well nowhere in this thread or anywhere did I or have I ever said "everyone" feels this way, but you're wrong or in denial about how many people DO feel the same. Go back and re-read tho....
But yes....it IS my opinion......it's different than yours......so what.....get over it and the bullying attached to it.

You don't think that the right to be determined one gender or the other by the state is a legitimate one? I guess you could try to explain that further.

Lol gotta love the power trippin'. But anyway, yes, the right to be determined one gender or the other IS most definitely a legitimate one. I never said differently and actually never even vaguely implied what you're attempting to derail with this off the wall statement/accusation. But only AFTER ALL of the gender re-assignment procedures/changes have been done.......not during the limbo state.

Further, you think that your right to not have to "witness" this is bigger or greater than their right to protest it?

So you've never heard of "equal rights for all" I'm guessing then. Whether it be lawful or societal makes no difference to me. My right to NOT witness such a pathetic displays of childish defiance is EQUAL TO their right to protest.

Well, sounds like you think that you are the center of the universe.
Lol :nono: debate the topic.....not the person. not at all......but IMV it seems YOU think I am.

Welcome back, lucky.
that's it......no balloons, banners or fireworks? very disappointing.

ETA: I agree with Kris as well. I think that there are many areas which are going to be difficult for TG people to navigate in a world of black and white "male and female". That is just logical. I also am open minded enough to understand this persons frustration. I think that he chose a manner of drawing public attention to his situation which made sense and did an effective job of pointing out the double standard that he felt society was imposing upon him.
well maybe this person should embrace his frustration internally and use it in a positive way to motivate him to proceed with the rest of the psychological and physical requirements to complete the re-assignment and receive the legal papers of his desired gender status. As long as he is living a double standard and trying to use both to his advantage, then he should accept there will be some instances and a time period in which a double standard will be applied to him by both legal and societal law........without going off the charts reactive in a disrespectful "flashing" hissy fit at the expense of others.

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In regards to those born in states that will not changer gender markers on birth certificates, our official stance is to acquire a US Passport in your correct name and gender. Once a US Passport has been issued you no longer have to refer back to birth certificate. US Passport trumps any birth certificate for any reason (including Real ID Act). Once you have gotten your new TN license/ID, your new passport can be obtained fairly easily with same documents you used for DOS.

2nd page of google explaining how to get your gender changed on your license in Tennessee. This guy just needed some attention. Shameful. I'm embarrassed for him.

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"wlillie" wrote:

Jones, a transgender woman, had a partial sex change and says that was all the Social Security office needed to switch her paperwork from male to female.

No, I'm not. Wink

eta-I've had a friend who took his shirt off in a public place and was told to put it back on and was arrested for indecent exposure when he didn't. I was drunk so the details are foggy, but it's not the same anyway. This man is dressed like a woman with the top half of him looking like a woman. He needs to behave appropriately since he chose to live like this. It is not the DMV's fault he decided to keep his penis AND get female breasts. You can't have it both ways where you get the benefits of being a man AND the benefits of being a woman and not expect to have to follow the rules for both. It's Wrong.

Ha! Missed that. It's funny - at the bottom of the same article it says this:

So without the state's definition of a full sex change, Jones will remain a female to social security and a male to the department of safety.

I don't disagree about the DMV refusing him at all. I just disagree that he should be charged if the laws stipulate differently.

I reread it again and finally saw the female part of it. :S N/M... I agree that the gov't should be cohesive on this one!

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"wlillie" wrote:

Jones, a transgender woman, had a partial sex change and says that was all the Social Security office needed to switch her paperwork from male to female.

No, I'm not. Wink

eta-I've had a friend who took his shirt off in a public place and was told to put it back on and was arrested for indecent exposure when he didn't. I was drunk so the details are foggy, but it's not the same anyway. This man is dressed like a woman with the top half of him looking like a woman. He needs to behave appropriately since he chose to live like this. It is not the DMV's fault he decided to keep his penis AND get female breasts. You can't have it both ways where you get the benefits of being a man AND the benefits of being a woman and not expect to have to follow the rules for both. It's Wrong.

You can't have both rules apply. Obviously DMV will only assign one gender. If the state has declared him a man, then the laws for men apply to him. Thus, it isn't indecent exposure (based on Beertj's post). The charges will have to be dismissed. If they go through with the charges and actually convict her of indecent exposure, then DMV will have to concede the court system views her as a woman. The state itself can't assign to genders to one person can they?

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Yes you can. I saw more detail to the law somewhere, but it says female nipple under the indecent exposure bit. He's taking the hormones to be a woman so even if he still has a penis, he has female breasts, female nipples and therefore exposed himself which means he gets charged even if he's still legally a man. That's not the DMV's or the state's fault, it's his own. How in the heck did he think this was going to help him get the change made to show he's a woman? It's obvious that the federal SSA and the state dMV don't have the same rules so I wonder if the DOJ and the DMV do? I bet not.

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Can I just say that it is embarrassing that this is how my Sate makes the news.

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"wlillie" wrote:

Yes you can. I saw more detail to the law somewhere, but it says female nipple under the indecent exposure bit. He's taking the hormones to be a woman so even if he still has a penis, he has female breasts, female nipples and therefore exposed himself which means he gets charged even if he's still legally a man. That's not the DMV's or the state's fault, it's his own. How in the heck did he think this was going to help him get the change made to show he's a woman? It's obvious that the federal SSA and the state dMV don't have the same rules so I wonder if the DOJ and the DMV do? I bet not.

Using that logic, if I had a double mastectomy would I have "male" breasts and could therefore expose myself freely? If he is legally a man how can they charge him under the law as a woman? Which jail cell are they going to put this person in?

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"ethanwinfield" wrote:

Using that logic, if I had a double mastectomy would I have "male" breasts and could therefore expose myself freely? If he is legally a man how can they charge him under the law as a woman? Which jail cell are they going to put this person in?

If you had hair, makeup (none), and clothing like a man, than go right ahead. He is legally both. I'd put him in the women's since he seems to really want to be one.

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"LuckyMom" wrote:

uh oh...watch out....you may get a spell check too. Lol

I suck at double checking my typing Wink and spelling lol!

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Well, if her intent was to garner attention then she was successful! When I read the OP I kinda laughed a little and thought to myself, "well, that's one way to get noticed!"

So, I sorta see the point of bringing attention to one's situation in a bold and potentially offensive way. Not my thing but for her, well that's her call.

As she embarked on her journey to change genders she must realize that during some point there would be an application of both sets of male and female rules until her journey is complete. As such it is her repsonsibility to embrace the whole process. Now if she chooses to try to change those rules of engagement then it is her prerogative to do so with the understanding that she must also accept the consequences that are attatched to those actions.

It may be that there are inequalities for someone who is in the middle of the transgender process. But I suppose that's what civil disobedience is for - to try to challenge and perhaps ultimately change those inequalities.

I must say though - I think she was perhaps a bit hasty. If she's really going to go through the transformation process to its end at which point the state, DMV, etc will recognize her as a woman then why challenge it permaturely? She could've just waited until the process was complete, she had all her paperwork in hand and ducks in a row. Then if she was still treated with what she perceived as inequality she can strike out.

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"elleon17" wrote:

I suck at double checking my typing Wink and spelling lol!

Lol well it's refreshing to know you understand and view it within the spirit it was intended. Smile no worries....I'm not now and never have been part of the childish board spell and grammar checking police. Smile but Secret not that I'm totally above dishing the same back to the 1st offender....especially when the sole purpose is a lame attempt at humiliating for whatever equally lame reason. Wink

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"LuckyMom" wrote:

Lol well it's refreshing to know you understand and view it within the spirit it was intended. Smile no worries....I'm not now and never have been part of the childish board spell and grammar checking police. Smile but Secret not that I'm totally above dishing the same back to the 1st offender....especially when the sole purpose is a lame attempt at humiliating for whatever equally lame reason. Wink

Hey lucky, I missed you so much. You are so awesome and consistent. Are you debating anything here, or attacking?

You know the rules of this board, don't you? Do you need Missy or Alissa to refresh your memory?

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"Potter75" wrote:

Hey lucky, I missed you so much. You are so awesome and consistent. Are you debating anything here, or attacking?

You know the rules of this board, don't you? Do you need Missy or Alissa to refresh your memory?

you should've thought about the rules before you started your usual bullying BS....talk about being awesomely consistent......which I see all over this board in almost every thread I am not your only prey. grow up. I'm not at all in need of any memory refreshing, but I surely believe you are judging by the frequency and mean spiritedness of your attacks with anyone that disagrees with your opinions. Debate instead of bait or put me on ignore. Trust me, in NO way would I suffer from the later choice.

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"LuckyMom" wrote:

you should've thought about the rules before you started your usual bullying BS....talk about being awesomely consistent......which I see all over this board in almost every thread I am not your only prey. grow up. I'm not at all in need of any memory refreshing, but I surely believe you are judging by the frequency and mean spiritedness of your attacks with anyone that disagrees with your opinions. Debate instead of bait or put me on ignore. Trust me, in NO way would I suffer from the later choice.

Nah, I'd just prefer to watch you get yourself banned Smile

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Why didnt she research the laws a little better before going into the DMV and making a spectacle of herself? I can see frustration with the process, but learn what the whole process is before you go and throw a tantrum. I do not see her ripping her shirt off as anything more then a tantrum

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The laws in Tennessee need to be changed to reflect the reality that one of the problems of being transgendered is that there's usually a few years' gap between starting the process and finishing it. Most therapists require a number of years of hormone treatments and breast alteration surgery and fully living as the other gender before signing off on sex reaasignment surgery. And some people need to save up a lot of money if it's not covered by their insurance, which can mean an even longer transition process. Someone who is living as a woman, dressing as a woman, using a new female name, using the women's restroom in public places, needs to have an ID that says she's female or she can get into a lot of trouble in certain places & settings. That's why most states allow you change your ID when your therapist signs off that you have made the change, even if your genitalia doesn't quite match up yet.

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Just saw this.

Okay - I understand how annoying it is to be in the middle of trying to make a point, and have someone point out a spelling error. I can't think of a time when that has ever been met with a positive response. So, word to the wise, unless you make it clear that you only mean it as gentle teasing, preferably with someone that you are "close" to, I'd advise against pointing out people's spelling/grammar errors. It just isn't ever well received, and for good reason.

Having said that, Lucky, I think you know that you've crossed well into the bounds of a personal attack. Cut it out.

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I think that he should be made to keep the sex "male" on his drivers license, because no matter what "operations" you may have, you were born a certain sex and surgery doesn't change your DNA. If he were a murder victim and they needed to identify his body and could only do that through DNA because of horrible decomposition, the tests would come back showing that he was in fact a male... period. I also think that he should have gotten in trouble for esposing himself, since because of the surgery, he now has breasts (I'm assuming... the story didn't go into much detail).

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"Alissa_Sal" wrote:

Just saw this.

Okay - I understand how annoying it is to be in the middle of trying to make a point, and have someone point out a spelling error. I can't think of a time when that has ever been met with a positive response. So, word to the wise, unless you make it clear that you only mean it as gentle teasing, preferably with someone that you are "close" to, I'd advise against pointing out people's spelling/grammar errors. It just isn't ever well received, and for good reason.

Having said that, Lucky, I think you know that you've crossed well into the bounds of a personal attack. Cut it out.

Sorry Alissa but no, I don't know that I've crossed any further into or over those bounds than the attacks that were originally perpetrated and continued by potter. Also perplexed as to why you would feel the need to post this considering the disagreement has been over for hours. sheesh...

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My quick thoughts.. Not all men take off their shirts in public, my husband never would, I would point out that most do not, unless at the beach, or lake etc.. On the flip side, most women don't wear killer heals, fishnets and mini skirts. So pushing the envelope for me I see negatively when it comes to modesty, regardless of gender/sex whatever.

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"Alissa_Sal" wrote:

Just saw this.

Okay - I understand how annoying it is to be in the middle of trying to make a point, and have someone point out a spelling error. I can't think of a time when that has ever been met with a positive response. So, word to the wise, unless you make it clear that you only mean it as gentle teasing, preferably with someone that you are "close" to, I'd advise against pointing out people's spelling/grammar errors. It just isn't ever well received, and for good reason.

Having said that, Lucky, I think you know that you've crossed well into the bounds of a personal attack. Cut it out.

Thanks Alissa. And Lucky, I apologize for pointing out your spelling. It was rude of me. I found it funny just because of what word it was, but it came off mean. Sorry!

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"Starryblue702" wrote:

I think that he should be made to keep the sex "male" on his drivers license, because no matter what "operations" you may have, you were born a certain sex and surgery doesn't change your DNA. If he were a murder victim and they needed to identify his body and could only do that through DNA because of horrible decomposition, the tests would come back showing that he was in fact a male... period. I also think that he should have gotten in trouble for esposing himself, since because of the surgery, he now has breasts (I'm assuming... the story didn't go into much detail).

Good point. Right.....the re-assignment operations required wouldn't change the DNA but I'm wondering if the use of the high levels of female hormones required would. I'm not a blood or DNA expert so haven't a clue if it does or not.

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I thought you couldn't ever change DNA? That's why it's the best thing to use, right?

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I'm pretty sure you cant change DNA. I almost thing thought that people who have or are having sex reassignment need a different designation in those databases that are used for identification purposes. As I pointed out earlier, if the license says female, but the genitalia are male (or vice versa) and the person was rendered unconscious or dead, it could take longer to identify them. I never thought about DNA though.

I realize that when one has a gender reassignment they want to be seen as wholly the gender they have changed into, so this is a pretty tough one. What I would ideally see happen is that all printed documentation have the 'current' sex of the person (perhaps as determined by their Dr), but have the database set so that they would come up if searched as either male or female (I am thinking in terms of body identification).

Just a though, and perhaps I am over complicating it?

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