Transgendered Miss Universe

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culturedmom's picture
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Transgendered Miss Universe

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2124309/Jenna-Talackova-Transgender-beauty-queen-allowed-compete-Miss-Universe-Canada-pageant.html

Do you think sheshould be allowed to compete? Do you think they previously kicked her out because "she lied" or do you think it was discrimination?

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I think that they kicked her out both because she lied and because she was born a male.

Personally I think that all beauty competitions are ridiculous ~ she is probably not much more "altered" than the other contestants with her fake boobs and nose job and whatever other plastic surgery she has had done. I couldn't care less if they allow her to compete, the things are a study in abject ridiculousness.

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Yeah I pretty much agree with Melissa in everything she said.

When the organization found out she was a male, i'm sure their gut reaction was probably to make the situation go away. The fact that she lied would fit the bill as a way to make it go away.

I don't care if she competes....she looks like she can compete to me. She looks like all the rest of them. Not sure why it would matter.

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What Melissa said. I hate that I'm not adding to this.

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Meh. I'm Canadian and have never heard of her. But, I don't watch pageants anyway. I don't see why she can't participate, and think them giving her the boot was a knee jerk reaction. Tangent here, but if I had no boobs and then got implants, I wouldn't have them placed so far south, so to speak. Just me, or are those boobs way too far down her chest?

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She looks about a thousand feet tall. If you look at her waist, the ratio seems to put the boobs in about the right place.

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It's that first pic in the pale dress that makes the girls look geographically misplaced Wink The bikini one doesn't look quite so bad. All things considered, like the fake everything, she looks pretty good.

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It's all been said.....there's really no reason to pretend to have "integrity" about these sorts of things.

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I detest these competitions with a passion. However, I think that everyone should have equal opportuntiy to do things, even if it is something as pathetic as a pageant. I don't think discrimination should only matter when it's something I agree with or like. I guess in a nut shell, I think everyone should have equal opportunity to do idiotic things, lol.

I just don't know why they would ask the question "Were you born a female?" on an application. That to me seems like they are purposfuly trying to keep out transgendered persons and regardless of what that application is for, that sucks.

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"culturedmom" wrote:

I just don't know why they would ask the question "Were you born a female?" on an application. That to me seems like they are purposfuly trying to keep out transgendered persons and regardless of what that application is for, that sucks.

Good point. Didn't even occur to me the first time i read this. They asked the question in the first place....what purpose does it serve.

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My understanding is that they told her she could compete if she met the legal definition of a female. Therefore she had to go to court to get that, and now that she does she is able to compete with no problem. I would think that this is what the question is for. It is a competition for females. Would you prefer that they asked to SEE all the contestants PROOF that they are female in the interview? I actually think that this was reasonable for them to ask her. You either need to be born a female or have a legal document stating that you are one now.

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"culturedmom" wrote:

I detest these competitions with a passion. However, I think that everyone should have equal opportuntiy to do things, even if it is something as pathetic as a pageant.

I actually don't. I think that women don't belong in the NFL, or the NBA, they belong in their own league. I don't think that women golfers should play on the mens tour, or that men golfers should be allowed on the womens tour etc etc.

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"culturedmom" wrote:

I just don't know why they would ask the question "Were you born a female?" on an application. That to me seems like they are purposfuly trying to keep out transgendered persons and regardless of what that application is for, that sucks.

ITA with this. It should make no difference whether you were born female or not as the competition is in the here & now. If a doctor says you're a female now, you should qualify for the pageant. I don't think there's a long line of dudes willing to get their junk lopped off for the chance at winning Miss Universe.

"ftmom" wrote:

My understanding is that they told her she could compete if she met the legal definition of a female. Therefore she had to go to court to get that, and now that she does she is able to compete with no problem. I would think that this is what the question is for. It is a competition for females. Would you prefer that they asked to SEE all the contestants PROOF that they are female in the interview? I actually think that this was reasonable for them to ask her. You either need to be born a female or have a legal document stating that you are one now.

She had the legal documentation of being female *before* she applied to the pagaent. She changed her gender when she was 19, and she's 23 now. Her birth certificate, driver's license, and passport all show her as being female. The issue is whether she "lied" when answering the question of if she was a naturally-born female. She responded yes, knowing that a no answer would disqualify her, but also knowing that she *is* a female, both biologically and legally. It was a question that should never have been asked. The proper question to ask was, "Are you female?" to which her answer, truthfully, would have been yes, and then most of us would have never heard of Jenna Talackova again.

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"Potter75" wrote:

I actually don't. I think that women don't belong in the NFL, or the NBA, they belong in their own league. I don't think that women golfers should play on the mens tour, or that men golfers should be allowed on the womens tour etc etc.

If there was a woman who had a sex change operation and was now a man and was as big and talented as the men in the NFL, could stand up with the guys and compete, then I think they should be allowed to try out for the NBA, NFL, etc. We are not talking about a man trying to get into a woman's beauty pageant (or women getting inot a men's sports league), Melis. We are talking about a woman tryign to get into a woman's beauty pageant.

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"culturedmom" wrote:

If there was a woman who had a sex change operation and was now a man and was as big and talented as the men in the NFL, could stand up with the guys and compete, then I think they should be allowed to try out for the NBA, NFL, etc. We are not talking about a man trying to get into a woman's beauty pageant (or women getting inot a men's sports league), Melis. We are talking about a woman tryign to get into a woman's beauty pageant.

B

Oh, sure. That just isn't what you said, you said everyone

However, I think that everyone should have equal opportuntiy to do things, even if it is something as pathetic as a pageant.

, I didn't realize that you meant everyone of the same sex. I agree with you, although I think that the line gets very very tricky when it comes to men who have undergone gender reassignment or transgendered individuals competing against women in athletics, as recent issues with sprinters or the like have proven.

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"Potter75" wrote:

I agree with you, although I think that the line gets very very tricky when it comes to men who have undergone gender reassignment or transgendered individuals competing against women in athletics, as recent issues with sprinters or the like have proven.

For professional athletics, I think the line should be drawn at surgery. If you've had the surgery, you're in. If you're just taking hormones, you're still whatever you were born. There's too much wiggle room for cheating otherwise. Of course, I wish that everyone who needs the surgery could get it at a reasonable cost, so there wouldn't be so many people living in a transgender limbo as we have now.

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"Spacers" wrote:

For professional athletics, I think the line should be drawn at surgery. If you've had the surgery, you're in. If you're just taking hormones, you're still whatever you were born. There's too much wiggle room for cheating otherwise. Of course, I wish that everyone who needs the surgery could get it at a reasonable cost, so there wouldn't be so many people living in a transgender limbo as we have now.

See, I disagree. Whether your penis was cut off or not you still have different muscle composition, height or size advantages etc. if you are genetically a man.

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"Potter75" wrote:

See, I disagree. Whether your penis was cut off or not you still have different muscle composition, height or size advantages etc. if you are genetically a man.

ITA....I think surgery is inconsequential in this situation. (Talking about the sports/athletics scenario)

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"Potter75" wrote:

See, I disagree. Whether your penis was cut off or not you still have different muscle composition, height or size advantages etc. if you are genetically a man.

I'll give you height, but doesn't muscle composition change when you switch from testosterone to estrogen or vice versa? The problem, and I'll agree with you about this, is when female competitors take testosterone to get the muscular advantage, and that should be illegal. A man whose testicles have been removed & who is taking estrogen therapy is going to have a muscle composition more like a woman even if he continues with his normal workout routine. And a woman whose ovaries have been removed & who is taking testosterone is going to have a muscle composition more like a man whether she does anything else or not.

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I really think this needs to be looked at in a case-by-case manner. It isn't as simple as technically being a man/woman on paper. You could still have an unfair advantage depending on the circumstances, especially with athletics, like Melissa said.

I don't think it is discriminatory, it is just fact. A transgendered person isn't the same biologically, genetically, chromosomally, as a person born a given sex.

As for a pageant... Well, like others have said, many of the other contests are pretty surgically altered themselves anyways, so I don't know that it matters in this case. But, in the end, with proper documentation, they let her in the contest anyways, so I don't think there is a problem.

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"Spacers" wrote:

I'll give you height, but doesn't muscle composition change when you switch from testosterone to estrogen or vice versa? The problem, and I'll agree with you about this, is when female competitors take testosterone to get the muscular advantage, and that should be illegal. A man whose testicles have been removed & who is taking estrogen therapy is going to have a muscle composition more like a woman even if he continues with his normal workout routine. And a woman whose ovaries have been removed & who is taking testosterone is going to have a muscle composition more like a man whether she does anything else or not.

I would like to see some actual research that can clearly state that a male who has become a female and is exceptionally athletic and has gone through the whole process has no clear advantage over exceptionally athletic females.

Plus i would think a lot would depend on when you went through this process.....and how much hormone therapy...etc.

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"KimPossible" wrote:

I would like to see some actual research that can clearly state that a male who has become a female and is exceptionally athletic and has gone through the whole process has no clear advantage over exceptionally athletic females.

Plus i would think a lot would depend on when you went through this process.....and how much hormone therapy...etc.

Wouldn't much of this also depend on the brain as to how much is normally processed without hormone therapy? Many woman have more testosterone than the normal woman and some have much less than normal. Should those with testosterone equivalent to men be eliminated from participating? What if a hermaphrodite chooses a female gender yet has more testosterone in their system? Are they not eligible to participate?

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"Beertje" wrote:

Wouldn't much of this also depend on the brain as to how much is normally processed without hormone therapy? Many woman have more testosterone than the normal woman and some have much less than normal. Should those with testosterone equivalent to men be eliminated from participating? What if a hermaphrodite chooses a female gender yet has more testosterone in their system? Are they not eligible to participate?

What are the rules?
A female athlete with hyperandrogenism who has testosterone levels in the male range (as measured by a blood test) will not be eligible to compete as a woman. The IOC has not yet decided on the cut-off levels, but the normal range of total testosterone for an adult premenopausal woman is typically defined as 15-70 nanograms per decilitre, compared with 260-1,000 nanograms per decilitre for a man.
There are exceptions, though. The most common cause of extreme hyperandrogenism is androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS). In these cases, an embryo is genetically male but lacks a fully functioning receptor for testosterone, so does not respond normally to the hormonal signal to become male. In typical cases, she develops as a female — although with internal testes instead of ovaries. The IOC and IAAF concluded that, because such women are resistant to androgens, they gain no competitive advantage from their high testosterone levels and have exempted them from the ban.
"If you have AIS, you should still be able to compete," says Malcolm Collins, a medical biochemist specializing in sports medicine at the University of Cape Town, who was not involved in drawing up the guidelines.
Women with testosterone levels that are high but below the male range – as commonly occurs with conditions such as polycystic ovary syndrome – would also be unaffected by the ban.
The IOC says that an athlete banned from female competition under these regulations would not be eligible to compete as a male.
How

A woman with testosterone EQUAL to a man would also have an enlarged clitoris, body hair, male pattern baldness and so forth and so on. No, a man or woman with testosterone equal to that of a woman should not be allowed to compete against women due to the unfair muscle/strength etc advantage. I mean, they could in chess or something, not running or tennis, IMO.

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"Potter75" wrote:

B

Oh, sure. That just isn't what you said, you said everyone , I didn't realize that you meant everyone of the same sex. I agree with you, although I think that the line gets very very tricky when it comes to men who have undergone gender reassignment or transgendered individuals competing against women in athletics, as recent issues with sprinters or the like have proven.

Yes I said everyone. I just assumed that since we were talking about a particular topic, then it was clear that that is what I meant. I apologize.

Chnaging physically from a man to a woman/woman to man is not as simple as cutting off a part. It takes years of therapy and hormone injections as well as reducing the unwnted hormone and then surgery. And usually by the time the person has the surgery they ahve already done hormone injections/gels/patches for years prior which basically rearranges their body composition and their features and muscle tone to that of the gender they are being reassigned to. It's actually not the surgery that gets them to look that way. So yes, if a man were to take hormones to become a woman he would not have the same muscle composition as a man after a certain amount of time.

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I'm quite aware that it involves more than cutting off a penis.

I was replying to this statement from Stacey:

I think the line should be drawn at surgery. If you've had the surgery, you're in. If you're just taking hormones, you're still whatever you were born.

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I don't think that they were discriminating against him any more than I could see an employer terminating someone who lied on an application. To me he's not a female, no matter how many surgeries he had. I don't care if you now have a vagina instead of a penis, it still doesn't change your DNA. It doesn't change the fact that he was, in fact, born a male. Let's say that a transgendered person is in a horrible accident and the only way to identify if the body is male or female is to do testing... guess what? It would come back showing the sex that they were born with, not the sex that they were changed into. Now don't missunderstand. I have no problem with people doing what they want to with their bodies (tattoos, piercings, surgeries...), that's their choice and none of my business whatsoever. I do, however, believe that a pageant like this should be for women and women only... and I mean women who were born women. If transgendered people would like to have a pageant, then they should have one... but I put this in the same category as the NFL or NBA statements that Melissa made, that there shouldn't be mingling of the genders in cases like this.