Trayvon Martin death - no charges filed

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"Claire'sMommy" wrote:

You can infer whatever you want from the tone of his voice. Here's a reminder for you of all his 911/police calls related to suspicious black men. Oh, and let's not forget about the 7-9 year old black boy...

http://loop21.com/life/george-zimmerman-911-call-history

All of his calls? I know thats not true because I already posted a list of every call, and more than half were for things like potholes, stray dogs, neighbors garage doors being open. And since we don't have a transcript about the 7-9 year old black boy we don't really know what his words were.... did he actually use the words suspicious or is that just how they summarized and logged the call? It could have been that he saw a young boy wandering around without parents and was concerned. But no, it doesn't matter that he was also mentoring a black child, he must be racist.

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"Alissa_Sal" wrote:

D'awww, thanks! Biggrin

I also thought that it was interesting that his legal team quit, although in fairness I don't think that has anything to do with his guilt or innocence. Seems to be more a case of the fact that he wasn't communicating with them or listening to them, which is bizarre but doesn't necessarily indicate guilt.

If I had to guess, I bet that George Zimmerman thinks that George Zimmerman is innocent, no matter what the real circumstances were. Like, no matter who started it, I'm sure that once they started to scuffle, he felt like he was in danger and had to protect himself. I don't deny that he probably feels this way, but I still don't think that he should get off simply because he felt like he was in danger when he is so thoroughly responsible for putting himself and Trayvon Martin in a life threatening situation.

Just like, if you broke into my house, I started beating you up, and then you shot and killed me. I don't think that a person should get to claim self defense when they made the first threatening move.

Alissa, I am so very glad your back! I love how you can make a post, but not make someone feel like they can't post unless they have the same opinion as the majority or if their opinion is not a popular one. You rock!

I do think that a person has the right to defend themselves, even if they are doing something they should not be doing in the first place. For example, trespassing. If someone takes a shortcut through someone's property to get to their house (I am thinking country, not the middle of the city), that does not give the property owner the right to shoot or attack them.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

But no, it doesn't matter that he was also mentoring a black child, he must be racist.

I don't care if he is racist or not, being a racist is legal and quite common in certain places. I do care that he is a murderer.

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"wlillie" wrote:

State.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47014240
Wasn't sure if you were referring to my post, Lillie.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

All of his calls? I know thats not true because I already posted a list of every call, and more than half were for things like potholes, stray dogs, neighbors garage doors being open. And since we don't have a transcript about the 7-9 year old black boy we don't really know what his words were.... did he actually use the words suspicious or is that just how they summarized and logged the call? It could have been that he saw a young boy wandering around without parents and was concerned. But no, it doesn't matter that he was also mentoring a black child, he must be racist.

No, read my post Gloria. I said all his calls "related to suspicious black men". I'm not talking about potholes and stray dogs for crying out loud.

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Yay, Alissa is back. So happy!!!

I know folks are digging stuff up about Trayvon-- but I think it tells a great deal about Zimmerman that he had called 911 so many times in the recent past. He was obviously paranoid, aggressive, scared, and had something going on "upstairs"-- kwim? And the number of calls related to "suspicious black men."

Seriously, how many times have YOU called 911 in the last few years? I've called once....when I was rear-ended.

And really, calling 911 for potholes and neighbors with open garages? WTH?

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Thanks Bonita and Audra. Smile

Audra, I agree, I think that the sheer volume of 911 calls speaks volumes about his mental state. I have never called 911 in my life! Also, George Zimmerman was previously arrested for a violent encounter with a cop and sentenced to anger management, which also knid of shows that he was a hot head.

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I just got a breaking news alert in my email that he is being charged. Good. http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-charged-trayvon-martin-killing/story?id=16115469#.T4XZvRxamYg

And yeah, Audra, I have called once about an obvious drunk driver in front of us on a major road. Normal people simply don't place all of those calls. Paranoid aggressive freaks, however, do.

Didn't he apply to be a police officer but get turned down because of prior assault charges and domestic violence charges? Or am I dreaming that I read that somewhere.

I don't care what "dirt" people dig up on Trayvon, he wasn't armed or doing anything wrong at the time he was identified as a suspect and pursued. It is as gross as people trying to dig up dirt on a rape victim who may have acted seductively in the past or worn a short dress ~ doesn't mean she deserved to be raped. This kid didn't deserve to be killed, regardless of how many detentions he had had or if he tried pot or something. So many high schoolers would be dead if those things warranted a death sentence.

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"Claire'sMommy" wrote:

No, read my post Gloria. I said all his calls "related to suspicious black men". I'm not talking about potholes and stray dogs for crying out loud.

Which again... was how they classify the call, it's not because Zimmerman called them suspicious.

Was this call a black male?

32. Oct. 2, 2010 – 1:55 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Disturbance
Report: Zimmerman reports “blu jeep grand Cherokee female driver yelling at elderly passengers … windows are tinted” … “the veh was rocking back and forth and he could hear the female yelling”

Or this one? Funny it doesn't mention race. Maybe because the dispatcher didn't ask for a description that time like on the other occasions.

43. Jan. 29, 2012 – 5:38 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Disturbance
Report: Children “running and playing in the street”

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Finally. Great news.

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Hopefully they can finally get to the bottom of this. I really hope they're able to prove what really happened in this situation.

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I think second degree murder is the appropriate charge. Second-degree murder is defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. It's definitely not first degree, willful and/or premediated murder. And it's not voluntary manslaughter, i.e. a "heat of passion" killing. The question is, was it self-defense, and I don't think it can be since Zimmerman followed Martin, he's the one who put himself into any potential danger.

And I'm not swayed one bit by some blood on his head. There are a number of reasonable explanations for that, including that Trayvon might have pushed him against a wall or tripped him so he fell on a curb. The questions that remain to be answered are, is it even Zimmerman's blood, and where else was his blood found, which side of the story does the evidence corroborate? And the video of him at the police station doesn't seem to show the same injury.

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Nope, doesn't bother me one bit. It leaves room for a plea bargain. If he was charged with manslaughter there'd be no room for negotiation. If a prosecutor can make a deal with the accused for a lesser charge it's better that than watch them walk.

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I thought prosecutors usually filed up so that there was room for a lesser charge.

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"ethanwinfield" wrote:

I thought prosecutors usually filed up so that there was room for a lesser charge.

Well, you can't charge with higher than what a grand jury would warrant, and she probably knew the cops' evidence inside and out and knew she'd never be able to charge him with 1st degree. You go for the maximum, based on the case, then have some wiggle room to plead down. This case has a ton of media and the defense will be feeling the pressure. Zimmerman can now take a plea of manslaughter and he'll get locked up. If the grand jury found evidence of premeditation then maybe he would've been charged with 1st degree. But the prosecutor dismissed the grand jury and decided to go it alone, in this case. I think she made a smart move, but she'll have her work cut out for her at trial, for sure.

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"Claire'sMommy" wrote:

Well, you can't charge with higher than what a grand jury would warrant, and she probably knew the cops' evidence inside and out and knew she'd never be able to charge him with 1st degree. You go for the maximum, based on the case, then have some wiggle room to plead down. This case has a ton of media and the defense will be feeling the pressure. Zimmerman can now take a plea of manslaughter and he'll get locked up. If the grand jury found evidence of premeditation then maybe he would've been charged with 1st degree. But the prosecutor dismissed the grand jury and decided to go it alone, in this case. I think she made a smart move, but she'll have her work cut out for her at trial, for sure.

I agree. You can't go up with a conviction - only down. If she starts with 2nd degree murder, the jury could find him guilty of something else - manslaughter, aggrevated assualt, don't know... There's no way they could get 1st degree. I hope he does plea and it's accepted. I would consider that justice without the media circus.

I'm not holding my breath though.

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Does the fact that George Zimmerman's great-grandfather is black have any bearing on whether he should be seen as a racist?

George Zimmerman's mother, grandmother and great-grandfather.

http://bossip.com/584264/race-matters-new-family-photograph-reveals-the-multicultural-heritage-of-george-zimmerman-but-does-it-matter-43081/

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Nope. My granddad's great-grandfather was black and he referred to blacks as the N-word. He would never admit to being a racist, but he told my mom she would not be marrying any black man. I have another relative whose *father* was Native American, and he says all Native Americans are lazy-a$$ed do-nothings. Racism is racism, and sometimes it flows over family lines.

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"Spacers" wrote:

Nope. My granddad's great-grandfather was black and he referred to blacks as the N-word. He would never admit to being a racist, but he told my mom she would not be marrying any black man. I have another relative whose *father* was Native American, and he says all Native Americans are lazy-a$$ed do-nothings. Racism is racism, and sometimes it flows over family lines.

Couldn't agree more.

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IMO I don't think that it has ever been demonstrated that George Zimmerman is a racist. If anything friends of all shades have come out in his defense.

It is just that people feel the death of Trayvon was a hate crime and racially motivated.

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Is that a serious question, Gloria, or were you kidding?

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I do feel like it was racially motivated and even though he has ancestors of color doesn't make him not a racist. I watched a documentary on this and Bi and multiracial people tend to identify often with either 1 segment or no segment. So they might identify as white or black or neither and feel left out. These people are still able to be racist.

What was that movie with Ryan Gosling where he was a neo-**** and Jewish? That was a good one.

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"Potter75" wrote:

Is that a serious question, Gloria, or were you kidding?

Completely serious. Kind of odd coming from you since you accused me of being biased since my kids are half hispanic, yet you think it it strange for me to question whether it would make a difference that his grandmother was half black in how he is accused of being racist toward blacks.

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dp

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I don't think that he is (necessarily) racist towards blacks, nor have I ever accused him of being so. I also never accused you of being racist: simply of potentially being biased as you were the only SINGLE person in this thread who was adamant that he did NOTHING wrong here and you have children about Zimmermans age who are also hispanic, I thought that perhaps it made you overly sympathetic which is not abnormal nor unusual......

Just like you aren't homophobic because you have a gay friend (according to you), you having hispanic children doesn't mean that you are a racist (according to you) and not Zimmermans Grandparent being black gets him off of being a racist too! (according to you). Its all just a little silly, I wasn't sure if maybe you were being tongue in cheek. I mean, its his GREAT GRANDFATHER for pete's sake. My Grandfather is a total racist, at 97 he is alive and kickin and as racist as the day is long. Doesn't have anything at all to do with whether or not I am.

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Does anyone know how many times Zimmerman called the cops on whites in his neighbourhood?

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"Claire'sMommy" wrote:

Does anyone know how many times Zimmerman called the cops on whites in his neighbourhood?

I dont' think this is neccesarily a point that he is/was a racist. Definitely he was profiling. There had been a series of break in's in his neighborhood by black males in the past 18 months ( I think I read it was 6 or so burgarlies). I don't think that is inherently racist. IMO, if the burgularies had been by white males, hispanic males, 'insert any ethnicity'....that would have been what would have heightened the attention of whomever was patroling the neighborhood.

My point is that I don't think that this action of profiling means he was a racist in his everyday life. I don't think that has been established or proven. I might be mistaken, but don't you need to prove a history of thought to make a case for racism in a hate crime, or is it that the moment the crime was committed you have become a racist?

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Fear of profiling is exactly why grandmothers, nuns and 4 year old children are patted down at the airport.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

Fear of profiling is exactly why grandmothers, nuns and 4 year old children are patted down at the airport.

Happened to me. I had my diaper searched for drugs in 1973 at the Frankfurt airport when emigrating to Canada. I fit a profile. Drugs were often smuggled in baby diapers. I was one of tens of thousands.

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http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/18/justic...tml?hpt=hp_bn1

Tests, the results of which were made public Thursday, would show evidence of Zimmerman's hands on the firearm, but not Martin's. An analysis of scrapings from underneath the teenager's fingernails did not contain any of Zimmerman's DNA, as might rub off in the case of a prolonged struggle.
*not the whole article

I didn't see this before. Does it bother those who keep insisting Zimmerman was defending himself that there was no DNA under Martin's fingernails or that the gun that the teenager was supposedly trying to wrestle out of his holster doesn't have his fingerprints on it? You think Zimmerman cleaned the evidence out?

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"wlillie" wrote:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/18/justic...tml?hpt=hp_bn1

Tests, the results of which were made public Thursday, would show evidence of Zimmerman's hands on the firearm, but not Martin's. An analysis of scrapings from underneath the teenager's fingernails did not contain any of Zimmerman's DNA, as might rub off in the case of a prolonged struggle.
*not the whole article

I didn't see this before. Does it bother those who keep insisting Zimmerman was defending himself that there was no DNA under Martin's fingernails or that the gun that the teenager was supposedly trying to wrestle out of his holster doesn't have his fingerprints on it? You think Zimmerman cleaned the evidence out?

Zimmerman didn't have a chance to do that. The cops were there within minutes. And it takes a lot of cleaning to get fingerprints gone, they don't just wipe off; modern forensics can piece together wiped-away evidence. And it doesn't surprise me that there's no DNA under Martin's fingernails. Men & boys tend to keep their nails shorter to begin with, and scratching at one's opponent just isn't a "manly" way of fighting. The fight lasted a few minutes at most, hardly enough time for a man to get into scratch-mode.

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Zimmerman is bald. There would have been skin or blood under his fingernails if he had been banging the dude's head on the sidewalk. You don't have to scratch someone to get their DNA under your nails, but I still imagine it would happen if you had the two hands it would take on either side to move it to cause the injuries Martin is being said to have.

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"wlillie" wrote:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/18/justic...tml?hpt=hp_bn1

Tests, the results of which were made public Thursday, would show evidence of Zimmerman's hands on the firearm, but not Martin's. An analysis of scrapings from underneath the teenager's fingernails did not contain any of Zimmerman's DNA, as might rub off in the case of a prolonged struggle.
*not the whole article

I didn't see this before. Does it bother those who keep insisting Zimmerman was defending himself that there was no DNA under Martin's fingernails or that the gun that the teenager was supposedly trying to wrestle out of his holster doesn't have his fingerprints on it? You think Zimmerman cleaned the evidence out?

Doesn't it bother you that Martin had scraped knuckles from punching Zimmerman?

The release of evidence by the prosecution Thursday also included potentially damning eyewitness accounts of the tussle between the two. One man at the scene told police he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, pummeling him mixed martial arts-style.

http://www.wbobradio.com/2012/05/21/george-zimmerman-case-should-charges-be-dropped/

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No, I would be punching the person who was about to kill me, too. Wouldn't you?

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"Potter75" wrote:

No, I would be punching the person who was about to kill me, too. Wouldn't you?

I wouldn't be punching someone out for asking what I was doing there.

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Yeah. You are making up how you imagine it started. And we know how it ended. So I'll work with the facts and go backward from there. You can go with how you imagine it and go forward from there. Either way, it ends with Zimmerman shooting the child who was walking home minding his own business dead.

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"Potter75" wrote:

Yeah. You are making up how you imagine it started. And we know how it ended. So I'll work with the facts and go backward from there. You can go with how you imagine it and go forward from there. Either way, it ends with Zimmerman shooting the child who was walking home minding his own business dead.

I'm not making anything up. That statement was from his own girlfriend.

She told attorneys she then heard the 17-year-old ask "What are you following me for?"

Then a man, presumably Zimmerman, replied: "What are you doing around here?"

The next we hear from any witness was Zimmerman on the ground with Martin on top pounding him.

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Who knows what happened between when the girlfriend heard that statement and when the witness saw the scene. Not you. Not me.

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"Potter75" wrote:

Who knows what happened between when the girlfriend heard that statement and when the witness saw the scene. Not you. Not me.

You are right we don't know for sure. But we have a pretty good idea since Zimmerman had a broken nose and cuts on the back of his head and was screaming for help, and Martin has scrapes on his knuckles from hitting him. Based on that information how is the state going to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it didn't happen that way?

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

You are right we don't know for sure. But we have a pretty good idea since Zimmerman had a broken nose and cuts on the back of his head and was screaming for help, and Martin has scrapes on his knuckles from hitting him. Based on that information how is the state going to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it didn't happen that way?

What way? That information in no way proves that Zimmerman didn't push or grab or otherwise physically instigate contact with Martin, who happened to be stronger than Zimmerman. If someone pushed me or attempted to engage me in a physical altercation you can be damned sure I would defend myself, and being stronger than them when they attack or engage me first is not a crime, nor does it give them license to SHOOT me.

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"Potter75" wrote:

What way? That information in no way proves that Zimmerman didn't push or grab or otherwise physically instigate contact with Martin, who happened to be stronger than Zimmerman. If someone pushed me or attempted to engage me in a physical altercation you can be damned sure I would defend myself, and being stronger than them when they attack or engage me first is not a crime, nor does it give them license to SHOOT me.

It is up to the state to prove their case, not for Zimmerman to disprove it. How are they going to prove that Zimmerman DID push or grab or instigate contact?

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

It is up to the state to prove their case, not for Zimmerman to disprove it. How are they going to prove that Zimmerman DID push or grab or instigate contact?

I have no idea. I'm not the states attorney. I'm not privy to information that they are.

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"Potter75" wrote:

I have no idea. I'm not the states attorney. I'm not privy to information that they are.

Unless they have some magic bullet they haven't released so far they can't.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

Unless they have some magic bullet they haven't released so far they can't.

Okay. Well, then you can gloat about how awesomely right you were and a child murderer can walk out of jail scott free and you can be happy about of it, and everyone else's life will just continue on, and a Mother and Father will mourn their son for the rest of their lives, but you will be happy. Tra la la la laaaaaaaa.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

It is up to the state to prove their case, not for Zimmerman to disprove it. How are they going to prove that Zimmerman DID push or grab or instigate contact?

The state's case is already proven; Martin is dead, Zimmerman pulled the trigger. Second degree murder, plain & simple. And if Zimmerman takes the "stand your ground" defense, as expected, then it *should* be up to him to prove how he was "standing his ground" when he was the one pursuing Martin, and when he was the one who disobeyed a 911 operator's instructions to not follow Martin in the first place. If Zimmerman had shot Martin from inside his car, then I'd happily accept that defense, but you don't get out of your car & follow someone, and shoot them dead when you know the cops are on their way, and claim that you were standing your ground.

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"Potter75" wrote:

Okay. Well, then you can gloat about how awesomely right you were and a child murderer can walk out of jail scott free and you can be happy about of it, and everyone else's life will just continue on, and a Mother and Father will mourn their son for the rest of their lives, but you will be happy. Tra la la la laaaaaaaa.

Oh please. Great debate point.

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776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

I'm pretty sure being on the ground screaming help would qualify as expressing the desire to withdraw or terminate the use of force.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

I'm pretty sure being on the ground screaming help would qualify as expressing the desire to withdraw or terminate the use of force.

He'd also have to withdraw from physical contact....which is not in his nature as evidenced by his past issues.

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