Urinating Marines video (potentially disturbing subject)

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Urinating Marines video (potentially disturbing subject)

The U.S. Marine Corps is launching an internal investigation into the culture of the Corps in response to a video that purportedly shows troops urinating on the corpses of suspected Taliban fighters, a Marine official told ABC News today.
The probe will attempt to answer the question "What happened in the Marine Corps that this happened?" according to the official.
"It'll be a holistic look at everything surrounding this issue," he said.
USMC Commandant Gen. Jim Amos first announced an internal "preliminary" probe Thursday, saying the video showed behavior "wholly inconsistent with the high standards of conduct and warrior ethos that we have demonstrated throughout our history."
The video, which surfaced online Wednesday, appears to show four men in uniform looking around before urinating on three dead bodies. At least one of the men chuckles as they do so.
"Have a great day, buddy," one of the men is heard saying, apparently to a dead body.
READ: US Marines Allegedly Urinate on Taliban Corpses
The Naval Criminal Investigative Service (NCIS) has already launched its own independent investigation into potential criminal activity shown in the video. All four Marines featured in the video have been identified and interviewed by investigators with the NCIS, the service said in a statement today. Officials are "still tracking down" whoever created and uploaded the video, the NCIS said.
The results of both the NCIS and the USMC investigations will be presented to Marine Lt. Gen. Thomas Waldhauser who will determine further action, the USMC said in a statement.
If authentic, the video portrays potential violations of both the first Geneva Convention, which calls for the dead to be "honorably interred" and graves to be "respected," as well as the U.S. Uniform Code of Military Justice for allegedly bringing "discredit upon the armed forces."

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The video appears to show four men in uniform... View Full Size


Fallout Over Urinating Video Watch Video


Marines Urinating Video Sparks Anger Watch Video


U.S. Marines Allegedly Urinate on Corpses Watch Video

Eugene Fidell, who teaches military justice at Yale University, said the Marines will most likely be charged under an interpretation of the Uniform Code for Military Justice and any prison sentences would depend on instructions a military judge will give a jury of military officers who then determine the sentence.
On one of the first websites to feature the video, the member who posted it identified the Marines as belonging to the 3/2 Marine battalion out of Camp Lejeune, an assertion later confirmed by the U.S. Marine Corps (USMC). The battalion served in the northern Helmand Province in Afghanistan last summer. The USMC declined to identify the individual Marines in the video.

After its anonymous release, the video was roundly condemned by top American and foreign officials.
U.S. Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta called it "deplorable" and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said she felt "total dismay" after hearing the story.
"It is absolutely inconsistent with American values, with the standards of behavior that we expect from our military personnel and the vast, vast military personnel, particularly our Marines, hold themselves to," she said Thursday.

Afghan President Hamid Karzai called the incident "inhuman."
"The Government of Afghanistan is deeply disturbed by a video that shows American soldiers desecrating dead bodies of three Afghans," Karzai said in a statement Wednesday, referring to the Marines. "This act by American soldiers is simply inhuman and condemnable in the strongest possible terms."
READ: Afghan President on USMC Video
The video surfaced after the U.S. government announced it was holding tacit peace talks with the Taliban that could possibly include a prisoner exchange, but a Taliban spokesperson reportedly said the footage will not have an impact.
"This is not a political process, so the video will not harm our talks and prisoner exchange because they are at the preliminary stage," spokesman Zabihullah Mujahid said Thursday, according to a Reuters report.
On Twitter, a user who identifies himself as another spokesperson for the Taliban linked to a report about the video and simply asked the U.S.-led International Security Assistance Force, "You guys love the spotlight, don't you?"

Is this "inhuman"? Is this a natural fallout from being told to kill your enemies, or different? What do you believe should happen to these soldiers?

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I'm not sure "inhumane" is the right word. Their actions were certainly wrong.

I can easily see how this sort of thing happens though. In any wartime situation where you are called to kill (be it in Afghanistan, WWII, or any other war), a soldier can't think of each person on the opposing side as an individual - a father, son, daughter, friend, whatever - it would be overwhelming. You would have to lump them all into "enemies" and the greater cause you are fighting against. And I imagine that takes some distancing of yourself from and blocking out the knowledge that whoever you killed was loved by someone. I see that hardening as a sort of survival technique.

You hear of it often when speaking about WWII vets. Many came home and never spoke of the war again. They pushed everything that happened down. What they did was right, but it was still horrific.

Do I think these soldiers should be reprimanded. Their actions were wrong and shouldn't happen. But I also hope they (and all) soldiers receive plenty of support and counsel, to help them sort out their experiences.

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"kris_w" wrote:

I'm not sure "inhumane" is the right word. Their actions were certainly wrong.

I can easily see how this sort of thing happens though. In any wartime situation where you are called to kill (be it in Afghanistan, WWII, or any other war), a soldier can't think of each person on the opposing side as an individual - a father, son, daughter, friend, whatever - it would be overwhelming. You would have to lump them all into "enemies" and the greater cause you are fighting against. And I imagine that takes some distancing of yourself from and blocking out the knowledge that whoever you killed was loved by someone. I see that hardening as a sort of survival technique.

You hear of it often when speaking about WWII vets. Many came home and never spoke of the war again. They pushed everything that happened down. What they did was right, but it was still horrific.

Do I think these soldiers should be reprimanded. Their actions were wrong and shouldn't happen. But I also hope they (and all) soldiers receive plenty of support and counsel, to help them sort out their experiences.

You said it much better than I could have. I completely agree.

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I think that to be a soldier in combat requires a certain amount of "inhumanity". It isn't a humane action to kill each other. This distancing is a survival technique, like Kris says. When you have to distance yourself so far to be able to cope with combat things like this happen. It sucks but it is a reality of war. I hope they are reprimanded so that a message is sent that this is not acceptable. But I also hope that help is available to these men.

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I don't think there is any reasoning that would make me think otherwise - these men crossed the line. Regardless if they are trained to kill, they should still have a level of respect. I get it is their job to kill these people that are causing possible harm to them and the US, but you don't pee on them, abuse their bodies. Surely the soldiers should know right from wrong. What they did was very wrong, they got caught, and they should be punished accordingly.

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I do think it is inhumane. Soldiers are taught to always obey their commander and those above them. If they knew that this behavior was as unexceptable as yelling back at your drill seargent or leaving your uniform on the floor, then they would not do it. You can't tell me an organization as bound by loyalty, respect, and obedience as our miltiary would have soldiers doing things like this if they knew it was against the rules.

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I don't think anyone can really understand the mentality that these soldiers had unless they themselves have been through war. These soldiers have seen and heard things that we wouldn't want to see and hear in our lifetimes. Horrific and terrible things. I do think it was wrong of them to do, as we are supposed to be on a much higher level of humane-ness (if that's a word lol) than the taliban are. But remember, these men that they are urinating on are the same men (or of the same group of men) that hijacked OUR planes that beautiful day in September and MURDERED 3000 Americans. Having their corpse's urinated on is the least of their worries. Also, does anyone remember the American Nick Berg that was over in Afghanistan back in 2002 and was kidnapped by the taliban and eventually beheaded... all of which was videotaped and broadcasted proudly over there, and all the while they were screaming how this is what they would like to do to all Americans? If you need reminding (or have never heard of Nick Berg) please google his name or if you have the stomach, watch the video. I think everyone who has a problem with what these soldiers did should be reminded of these things. The taliban are a savage group that capture, behead, slaughter, and do whatever sick and vile things they want with Americans... that's what they do to us. I don't think it's right what they did, but we need to cut them some slack. It's because of these soldiers, who put their lives on the line every day, that this country is free and safe.

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"Starryblue702" wrote:

I don't think anyone can really understand the mentality that these soldiers had unless they themselves have been through war. These soldiers have seen and heard things that we wouldn't want to see and hear in our lifetimes. Horrific and terrible things. I do think it was wrong of them to do, as we are supposed to be on a much higher level of humane-ness (if that's a word lol) than the taliban are. But remember, these men that they are urinating on are the same men (or of the same group of men) that hijacked OUR planes that beautiful day in September and MURDERED 3000 Americans. Having their corpse's urinated on is the least of their worries. Also, does anyone remember the American Nick Berg that was over in Afghanistan back in 2002 and was kidnapped by the taliban and eventually beheaded... all of which was videotaped and broadcasted proudly over there, and all the while they were screaming how this is what they would like to do to all Americans? If you need reminding (or have never heard of Nick Berg) please google his name or if you have the stomach, watch the video. I think everyone who has a problem with what these soldiers did should be reminded of these things. The taliban are a savage group that capture, behead, slaughter, and do whatever sick and vile things they want with Americans... that's what they do to us. I don't think it's right what they did, but we need to cut them some slack. It's because of these soldiers, who put their lives on the line every day, that this country is free and safe.

This POV astounds me. Regardless of what someone did, and I do UNDERSTAND, we have no right to send members of our military in with attitudes that they can defile any "enemy" that they want. We all know that these people over there are disgusting and they've done terrible things and continue to pose a threat, but we have no right to pee on their bodies or abuse them. If it gets to a point that a solider can no longer control his actions, they should be removed from that situation. We can't have members of our military that are supposed to be representing the US acting like that.

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"Starryblue702" wrote:

I don't think anyone can really understand the mentality that these soldiers had unless they themselves have been through war. These soldiers have seen and heard things that we wouldn't want to see and hear in our lifetimes. Horrific and terrible things. I do think it was wrong of them to do, as we are supposed to be on a much higher level of humane-ness (if that's a word lol) than the taliban are. But remember, these men that they are urinating on are the same men (or of the same group of men) that hijacked OUR planes that beautiful day in September and MURDERED 3000 Americans. Having their corpse's urinated on is the least of their worries. Also, does anyone remember the American Nick Berg that was over in Afghanistan back in 2002 and was kidnapped by the taliban and eventually beheaded... all of which was videotaped and broadcasted proudly over there, and all the while they were screaming how this is what they would like to do to all Americans? If you need reminding (or have never heard of Nick Berg) please google his name or if you have the stomach, watch the video. I think everyone who has a problem with what these soldiers did should be reminded of these things. The taliban are a savage group that capture, behead, slaughter, and do whatever sick and vile things they want with Americans... that's what they do to us. I don't think it's right what they did, but we need to cut them some slack. It's because of these soldiers, who put their lives on the line every day, that this country is free and safe.

Krystal, I get where you are coming from and just because I feel the way I do does not mean that I don't have respect, sympathy, and compasion for what soldiers have to go through. I have many military veterans and active members, in my family. My point is the military does not operate on a sliding scale of sympathy. They do not take into consideration emotions and one's history before expecting an order to be carried out. Thats why many young men and women join the military in the first place. They didn't expect my cousin to take it easy his first weeek of boot camp because he had a hard life.

My point is, we should not be making excuses. That goes against everything the military stands for. And I believe if they knew that mis-treating the "enemy" dead or alive was not tolerated and against the rules, they wouldn't go against that order. I expect much more from our military and soldiers then I do those of the taliban. We all should.

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"Starryblue702" wrote:

I don't think anyone can really understand the mentality that these soldiers had unless they themselves have been through war. These soldiers have seen and heard things that we wouldn't want to see and hear in our lifetimes. Horrific and terrible things. I do think it was wrong of them to do, as we are supposed to be on a much higher level of humane-ness (if that's a word lol) than the taliban are. But remember, these men that they are urinating on are the same men (or of the same group of men) that hijacked OUR planes that beautiful day in September and MURDERED 3000 Americans. Having their corpse's urinated on is the least of their worries. Also, does anyone remember the American Nick Berg that was over in Afghanistan back in 2002 and was kidnapped by the taliban and eventually beheaded... all of which was videotaped and broadcasted proudly over there, and all the while they were screaming how this is what they would like to do to all Americans? If you need reminding (or have never heard of Nick Berg) please google his name or if you have the stomach, watch the video. I think everyone who has a problem with what these soldiers did should be reminded of these things. The taliban are a savage group that capture, behead, slaughter, and do whatever sick and vile things they want with Americans... that's what they do to us. I don't think it's right what they did, but we need to cut them some slack. It's because of these soldiers, who put their lives on the line every day, that this country is free and safe.

See I get this. And to a degree I do agree. As I said before, I understand how these sorts of things happen and hope all soldiers get lots of support, but it is still wrong. And while the Taliban certainly do not show respect for our dead, we should be better then that and not stoop to that level.

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"culturedmom" wrote:

Krystal, I get where you are coming from and just because I feel the way I do does not mean that I don't have respect, sympathy, and compasion for what soldiers have to go through. I have many military veterans and active members, in my family. My point is the military does not operate on a sliding scale of sympathy. They do not take into consideration emotions and one's history before expecting an order to be carried out. Thats why many young men and women join the military in the first place. They didn't expect my cousin to take it easy his first weeek of boot camp because he had a hard life.

My point is, we should not be making excuses. That goes against everything the military stands for. And I believe if they knew that mis-treating the "enemy" dead or alive was not tolerated and against the rules, they wouldn't go against that order. I expect much more from our military and soldiers then I do those of the taliban. We all should.

I agree.

"kris_w" wrote:

See I get this. And to a degree I do agree. As I said before, I understand how these sorts of things happen and hope all soldiers get lots of support, but it is still wrong. And while the Taliban certainly do not show respect for our dead, we should be better then that and not stoop to that level.

But they didn't stoop to their level. No one was beheaded here. If all the taliban did was pee on Americans AFTER they were dead, then the actions of these soldiers would be inexcuseable... but that's not the case at all. Like I said before, I too agree that what these soldiers did was wrong and our military should set a better example than this, but let the military deal with it and lets move on.

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Condoning this type of behavior is blatantly disrespectful to every Marine, Airman, Sailor and Soldier that has been or will be deployed and has not acted in such a manner towards the enemy.

You are taught appropriate behavior, actions, and manners within the Marine Corps. You are also taught that there are rules of war that we do adhere to. This behavior also breaks the Geneva Code, which the United States adheres to.

So what does this mean? You can't have your cake and eat it too. If we start allowing our soldiers to act like the enemy's on the field of war, then we are no better then they.

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"Starryblue702" wrote:

I agree.

But they didn't stoop to their level. No one was beheaded here. If all the taliban did was pee on Americans AFTER they were dead, then the actions of these soldiers would be inexcuseable... but that's not the case at all. Like I said before, I too agree that what these soldiers did was wrong and our military should set a better example than this, but let the military deal with it and lets move on.

Lets not forget, our soldiers presumably killed these men dead, before urinating on them. You may find a huge difference between using bullets or smart bombs and using a sword......but the end result is the same, they dead. Super dead.

I don't get the whole "we are not like them" argument when we are in their homeland, killing them dead, but with fancier weapons and armor. I mean, war is war, no? It's so ethnocentric. I don't really think that we are any "better" than the Taliban, just think that we are approaching the situation from a position of power. I guess I don't get the whole "fight fair" or "fight with rules" thing, when the ultimate objective is to render them dead.

I guess I just don't trust my own morality enough. I picture myself in a situation where I was in an unstable situation 24/7 with people just lusting to kill me...........I think that I might have a hard time "respecting" the people who wanted and tried their mightiest to kill me. I'd hate them. I get that there are "rules of war"......but also admit to not really understanding them. Like, while they are alive we are supposed to use almost any and every tactic to kill them......then once they are dead (only because they failed to kill me) I'm supposed to RESPECT them? Don't get it.

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"Prudence" wrote:

Condoning this type of behavior is blatantly disrespectful to every Marine, Airman, Sailor and Soldier that has been or will be deployed and has not acted in such a manner towards the enemy.

You are taught appropriate behavior, actions, and manners within the Marine Corps. You are also taught that there are rules of war that we do adhere to. This behavior also breaks the Geneva Code, which the United States adheres to.

So what does this mean? You can't have your cake and eat it too. If we start allowing our soldiers to act like the enemy's on the field of war, then we are no better then they.

YOu mean a manner like, that killed them? I think that the assumption that we ARE "better then they" is extremely arrogant, from someone sitting on the couch.

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Um, I spent my time in the military, so I'm not sure where the assumption comes from that I've been sitting on the couch Wink But ya know- easy assumption, I suppose Smile

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"Prudence" wrote:

Um, I spent my time in the military, so I'm not sure where the assumption comes from that I've been sitting on the couch Wink But ya know- easy assumption, I suppose Smile

Thats great! I'm sitting on my couch, as are many of the pundits decrying the actions of these boys.

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"Like, while they are alive we are supposed to use almost any and every tactic to kill them......then once they are dead (only because they failed to kill me) I'm supposed to RESPECT them? Don't get it."

Here- let's ask you this then...

You don't believe in the 'fight fair' type policies that the Geneva Convention and other laws have attempted to impose... So you believe, then, the opposite? That dropping the bomb on Hiroshima was appropriate and we should just drop a nuke? No- I'm going to guess (and of course, this is assuming and we all know where that gets us) that you believe we should stay out of all wars and to maintain only our homelands and our people. What about wars such as WWII, where we did drop a nuke, but then again, war was first imposed upon our own homeland when Pearl Harbor was attacked.During that war, do you think we should have maintained more humane methods of warfare or do you think it's okay to be inhumane because it is a time of war?

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around this statement though, "Like, while they are alive we are supposed to use almost any and every tactic to kill them......then once they are dead (only because they failed to kill me) I'm supposed to RESPECT them? Don't get it." Have you ever heard of nuclear, biological and chemical warfare? Napalm? Obviously- we can't use "almost any and every tactic to kill them". If we were permitted to use any and every tactic (which is what the Geneva Convention originally imposed- no more nukes, no more NBC warfare, etc)- then Saddam would have been killed in Desert Storm.

A hunter can take life and still respect it. A soldier can do the same. Do you really think every single military member holds disdain for life in their hearts?

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"Prudence" wrote:

"Like, while they are alive we are supposed to use almost any and every tactic to kill them......then once they are dead (only because they failed to kill me) I'm supposed to RESPECT them? Don't get it."

Here- let's ask you this then...

You don't believe in the 'fight fair' type policies that the Geneva Convention and other laws have attempted to impose... So you believe, then, the opposite? That dropping the bomb on Hiroshima was appropriate and we should just drop a nuke? No- I'm going to guess (and of course, this is assuming and we all know where that gets us) that you believe we should stay out of all wars and to maintain only our homelands and our people. What about wars such as WWII, where we did drop a nuke, but then again, war was first imposed upon our own homeland when Pearl Harbor was attacked.During that war, do you think we should have maintained more humane methods of warfare or do you think it's okay to be inhumane because it is a time of war?

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around this statement though, "Like, while they are alive we are supposed to use almost any and every tactic to kill them......then once they are dead (only because they failed to kill me) I'm supposed to RESPECT them? Don't get it." Have you ever heard of nuclear, biological and chemical warfare? Napalm? Obviously- we can't use "almost any and every tactic to kill them". If we were permitted to use any and every tactic (which is what the Geneva Convention originally imposed- no more nukes, no more NBC warfare, etc)- then Saddam would have been killed in Desert Storm.

A hunter can take life and still respect it. A soldier can do the same. Do you really think every single military member holds disdain for life in their hearts?

Hmm , Napalm and nukes. Two things that our military have (almost exclusively) used in combat. I'm not sure I understand your argument.

As to your bolded sentence....of course not, that is my entire point. War is not humane. Killing people is not humane. Neither is pissing on corpses. But to say one is worse than the other is weird.

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Sorry- just thinking things through... I will admit- it is a fine line to walk- killing 'enemies' and then trying to be respectful of the dead after they are dead. Following 'rules' that might seem arbitrary in the heat of the moment simply to say that you followed the rules. I get that. The term 'rules of engagement' or 'laws of war' seem contrary, even under the best of circumstances. STILL- they are there for good reason even if they seem contrary. I would rather our country not drop a nuclear bomb upon a city, killing all of its citizens, in order to kill a handful of people we have termed our enemies. I would rather we not use napalm upon the battlefield. I would rather we not use NBC warfare.

I guess I'm just a romantic at heart Wink

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"Potter75" wrote:

Hmm , Napalm and nukes. Two things that our military have (almost exclusively) used in combat. I'm not sure I understand your argument.

Have we nuked the middle east? Have we used napalm? That's my argument- and you are being intentionally obtuse. It's either- in for a penny, in for a pound- which is the argument stating that if we can kill the enemy, why not piss on them as well- or we follow the rules of warfare and attempt to be as civilized as possible in an uncivilized setting. War is not pretty-it never was and it never will be.

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"Prudence" wrote:

Have we nuked the middle east? Have we used napalm? That's my argument- and you are being intentionally obtuse. It's either- in for a penny, in for a pound- which is the argument stating that if we can kill the enemy, why not piss on them as well- or we follow the rules of warfare and attempt to be as civilized as possible in an uncivilized setting. War is not pretty-it never was and it never will be.

Nah, I'm not. Disagreeing with you lucidly is not being obtuse, silly.

I just don't believe that "civilized" and "war" make sense in the same sentence. I get that people need to tell themselves that they do in order to feel morally superior, I just disagree. I'm decidedly NOT a romantic, if that is what romantic is.

What they did is wrong as it is against the "rules". I'm just a little shocked by all of the uproar. Its like the peeing overshadows the killing, which is strange to me.

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You're supposed to kill your enemies cuz that's the right thing to do, but OMG HOW DARE YOU PISS ON THEM!

...you know, after you killed them.

Uh. Hold on while I scratch my head here.

Lemme try this again. It's ok to kill someone, we'll even give you a paycheck for doing that, but don't pee on them...you know, those people who try to kill YOU...cuz, um that's a terrible thing to do.

Scratching my head again.

Sorry. I'd piss on somebody that tried to kill me. Yep. I'd do it. Yes, write these guys up because they did something on the job that they weren't supposed to do, but logic would tell you that this isn't something to make a federal case about.

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I'm very sure the Marine's training is much different than ours is, but anyone smart enough to enlist or commission in the military is smart enough to realize that a video like that will have huge unfortunate implications to their fellow military members. It's bad enough to disrespect a dead body, but to video it and let the video get out is beyond unforgiveable. I'm sick to death of seeing this crap and hearing that the Taliban is using it as an excuse for whatever atrocious thing they do to retaliate. Just because they are horrible excuses for human beings doesn't mean that their bodies deserve less respect than ours.

We *are* better than that and to have it brushed aside would prove the Taliban right. I have no sympathy for the Taliban and if I could push a button and have the whole group dead I wouldn't hesitate, but after they are dead there is no reason to pee on them. It's just disrespectful to someone who can't hurt you anymore.

Killing them isn't something most military members enjoy, but there is a reason we are there. Peeing on people or otherwise disrespecting their bodies once they are gone doesn't have any reasoning behind it. It just lets other servicemembers and US civilians down.

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So there are not more humane ways to kill a person? I think there are. I think slowly pouring acid on someone until their skin burns off and they slowly die is a lot less humane then shooting someone so they die quickly. And I think if soldiers are at war, they are fighting against those who would kill them. It is killing in defense. However, there is a line between defense and aggression. Shooting someone who wants to kill you or do harm to you and your country = defense. Pissing on their dead corps while laughing and taking pictures is not defense.

I guess if you are one of those people who think killing for any reason is wrong and soldiers are just murderers, then I guess any way of killing is going to be seen as equal. But I don't believe that. I think one can be moral and still defend themselves nd their country. I am not a pasificst by any means. I wish we lived in a world where war was not necessary and the military was not needed. But we don't. However, I still expect our military to act in accordance to a moral code. I ahve no problem in seeing the logic in that.

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"wlillie" wrote:

I'm very sure the Marine's training is much different than ours is, but anyone smart enough to enlist or commission in the military is smart enough to realize that a video like that will have huge unfortunate implications to their fellow military members. It's bad enough to disrespect a dead body, but to video it and let the video get out is beyond unforgiveable. I'm sick to death of seeing this crap and hearing that the Taliban is using it as an excuse for whatever atrocious thing they do to retaliate. Just because they are horrible excuses for human beings doesn't mean that their bodies deserve less respect than ours.

We *are* better than that and to have it brushed aside would prove the Taliban right. I have no sympathy for the Taliban and if I could push a button and have the whole group dead I wouldn't hesitate, but after they are dead there is no reason to pee on them. It's just disrespectful to someone who can't hurt you anymore.

Killing them isn't something most military members enjoy, but there is a reason we are there. Peeing on people or otherwise disrespecting their bodies once they are gone doesn't have any reasoning behind it. It just lets other servicemembers and US civilians down.

Agreed 10000%! Yes, they killed them - but there is no reason acceptable that our military should be peeing on the dead bodies. It's disgusting and goes against everything that they've been taught and trained to do.

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I think it was an immature thing to do, but not necessarily the end of the world. I think it would be a shame if the military lost a few good solders because of this mistake. Now, would it hurt them to peel some extra potatoes or go on an extra 10 mile run to teach them this was not necessary, no.

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IMO it's a total degradation. Shameless and disgusting. Desecrating corpses is horrible enough when NOT being videotaped.

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"Claire'sMommy" wrote:

IMO it's a total degradation. Shameless and disgusting. Desecrating corpses is horrible enough when NOT being videotaped.

Peeing on somebody is shameless and disgusting, but killing somebody is not?

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Was it the wrong thing to do? YES Was it understandable under the circumstances? YES
Until you are in a life or death situation like they were I don't think you have the right to judge what these men might have done in the heat of the moment. Yes they should get some kind of punishment and maybe some counseling because they crossed the line. But I'm pretty sure that if we were to see the video of what happened BEFORE this video started we might all have a little more sympathy for these men. We were just recently asked by a man's family from our church who just returned from being stationed in Afghanistan to pray for some of his friends who were killed and wounded after he left to come home. A group of men were playing football with Afghan soldiers who they had been training with and working with, when suddenly some of the Afghan soldiers opened fire on them from the sidelines. These were men that they trusted and were trying to help. I'm sorry but after something like that happens I'm sure sometimes emotion takes over and they might not have been thinking clearly about their actions. It's not that easy to turn your emotions off and on at will in the heat of battle.

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Melissa - ITA. I can't wrap my head around the idea that it's okay to go over there and invade them, occupy their country, drops bombs on them, kill them, but peeing on them, that crosses the line.

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I can see both sides.

War is terrible, but by its *nature* if we are committed to doing it, unfortunately that means we are committed to killing people as part of it. However, i don't think our military wants to suggest we should revel in it. I think peeing on the dead portrays the military as reveling in the killing of others. Committing to war in the first place is a whole different debate, by the time we are talking about peeing on them, we have already committed to the violence that comes with war.

Yet, at the same time, actually being in that environment and having to perform in that environment must take a serious toll on your mind. I can absolutely see how this type of thing can happen, particularly for the very rational reasons presented. (I've been ordered to kill them, I must go in with the mindset that I can't view them as a person, a human...as sacred life, yet peeing on them is somehow objectionable)

Regardless, i think the actions need to be reprimanded, and i think its appropriate to have clear rules against such behavior...at the same time, i can't be infuriated by the sole fact that it happened. It only just makes me think "God war is such an awful thing and it can really mess you up"

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"KimPossible" wrote:

I can see both sides.

War is terrible, but by its *nature* if we are committed to doing it, unfortunately that means we are committed to killing people as part of it. However, i don't think our military wants to suggest we should revel in it. I think peeing on the dead portrays the military as reveling in the killing of others. Committing to war in the first place is a whole different debate, by the time we are talking about peeing on them, we have already committed to the violence that comes with war.

Yet, at the same time, actually being in that environment and having to perform in that environment must take a serious toll on your mind. I can absolutely see how this time of thing can happen, particularly for the very rational reasons presented. (I've been ordered to kill them, I must go in with the mindset that I can't view them as a person, a human...as sacred life, yet peeing on them is somehow objectionable)

Regardless, i think the actions need to be reprimanded, and i think its appropriate to have a clear rules against such behavior...at the same time, i can't be infuriated by the sole fact that it happened. It only just makes me think "God war is such an awful thing and it can really mess you up"

Kim hit the nail on the head with the bolded. Killing in war is necessary, but taking pleasure in it is the problem. It is a line that shouldn't be crossed.

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I don't know. If faced with a kill or be killed scenario, I'm pretty sure that I might take pleasure that it was them that was dead, and not me. I think that there is a degree of human nature tied into that ~ the urge to survive is so strong, and when face to face with someone plotting and planing your death.....well, there may be a lot of emotions that come with being the one who survived. Pleasure could be one of them, I would think. It just seems like a slightly visceral response. Didn't Native Americans used to scalp their victims, to dance around them in victory dances and whatnot? I would bet that there are many such stories of celebration or reveling in victory or triumph over an enemy throughout various peoples and various cultures in all of history.

Heck, people were dancing in the street celebrating the death of 3000+ Americans the day the towers fell. People danced and celebrated when Bin Laden was killed. I think that it is clear that a lot of people DO take pleasure in death.

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I think there is a case to say that it is a natural emotion that may arise....i don't think that means it needs to be encouraged.

There are a lot of natural feelings that we repress or discourage. Such as jealousy...as an example. Just because you feel pleasure from killing in such a violent environment doesn't mean you should indulge in that feeling of pleasure.

Like i said...i get it, it doesn't enrage me....i just see the value in discouraging it.

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I guess I just don't understand the "inhumane" aspect (which I know you are not agreeing with, necessarily, Kim) . Looking at humanity and at history I'd say it is very, very human (especially for men). It is LESS human (or, instinctual) to "fight it". Feeling it (or even acting on those feelings) does not make these boys monsters, it makes them human, you know?

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Yes, I think I agree with you. Especially because they are operating in a very uncivilized environment....it makes sense that our most raw and most natural emotions might get the best of us.

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"Potter75" wrote:

I guess I just don't understand the "inhumane" aspect (which I know you are not agreeing with, necessarily, Kim) . Looking at humanity and at history I'd say it is very, very human (especially for men). It is LESS human (or, instinctual) to "fight it". Feeling it (or even acting on those feelings) does not make these boys monsters, it makes them human, you know?

I think that is one thing that many people forget .... a lot of these are BOYS fresh out of high school. I think we should cut them a little slack considering the job they are doing, when other boys their age are probably home playing beer pong. Yes they made a mistake and I'm sure the military will hand out the appropriate discipline for it. It's easy to sit back over here in the safety of our homes and condemn them for getting a little carried away.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

I think that is one thing that many people forget .... a lot of these are BOYS fresh out of high school. I think we should cut them a little slack considering the job they are doing, when other boys their age are probably home playing beer pong. Yes they made a mistake and I'm sure the military will hand out the appropriate discipline for it. It's easy to sit back over here in the safety of our homes and condemn them for getting a little carried away.

Absolutely. I used to teach high school, so some of my students were shipped of to the sand box. One day I'm saying, "Trevor, please stop poking Tiffany in the head with your pencil" and a few months later, I see his mom in the grocery store and she's telling me that he's fighting in Iraq. Hard for me to wrap my head around.

And ITA with Melissa. The response is hardly "inhumane." It's actually quite human. Sure, discourage it with some minor punishment, but don't ruin these boys' lives because of it.

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Although I disagree with what these boys did, I do not think they should be punished. I think the military should make a broad, please do not pee on bodies statement, but I really hope these boys do not have their lives ruined.

The mind boggling thing for me is, why on earth do people video tape themselves doing crazy things like this? Do they really think no one will ever see it?

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Sad

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"mom3girls" wrote:

The mind boggling thing for me is, why on earth do people video tape themselves doing crazy things like this? Do they really think no one will ever see it?

The list is looong for people we could ask that question. I can think of quite a few people who have made that mistake. You just can't explain stupidity.

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"kris_w" wrote:

See I get this. And to a degree I do agree. As I said before, I understand how these sorts of things happen and hope all soldiers get lots of support, but it is still wrong. And while the Taliban certainly do not show respect for our dead, we should be better then that and not stoop to that level.

Ditto this. Someone died, and they deserve a certain amount of respect whether we like them or agree with them or hate their guts. Be respectful, and if you can't, then at least don't videotape it!

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"Potter75" wrote:

I guess I just don't trust my own morality enough. I picture myself in a situation where I was in an unstable situation 24/7 with people just lusting to kill me...........I think that I might have a hard time "respecting" the people who wanted and tried their mightiest to kill me. I'd hate them. I get that there are "rules of war"......but also admit to not really understanding them. Like, while they are alive we are supposed to use almost any and every tactic to kill them......then once they are dead (only because they failed to kill me) I'm supposed to RESPECT them? Don't get it.

I agree here. And this was my point... that we ask our soldiers to go over there and live in hellish conditions with people wanting to kill them every second of the day, simply because they're Americans and they hate us (I say "they" as in the taliban and/or al-quieda [sp?] because they have videotaped themselves numerous times saying that they hate us and wish us ALL to be killed at their hands and posted it on the internet). So because of these circumstances and conditions that our soldiers are in daily, "above it" or not, right or wrong, I can see how something like this can and did happen. Was it right? No. But I think we should cut them some slack. This is NOTHING compared to what happened at Guantanamo, as these men were dead already.

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I just saw that there's an online petition to pardon the four Marines in question:

http://www.change.org/petitions/pardon-the-marines-who-urinated-on-the-fallen-enemy