VP Debate

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VP Debate

I will go ahead and start this. What did you think?

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I didn't watch it. I was too busy dealing with a 3-year-old who didn't want to sleep in his new big boy bed. Sad DH watched the whole thing and summed it up for me: Biden was great, he nailed everything except his closing argument; Ryan wasn't bad, although he still didn't offer any details or specifics on anything; Biden was confident & comfortable but almost annoyingly so; Ryan seemed like he was trying to talk his grandfather into loaning him money for a business venture without telling Gramps that it's a strip club; Biden was surprisingly gaffe-free; and Ryan was also surprisingly gaffe-free unlike other recent Republican VP candidates. He gives Biden an A- and Ryan a C+. He said if Ryan had just given something specific about anything, he'd be up to B+ easily. He said it was a fun watch. I'm waiting for the transcripts to come out online so I can check it out myself.

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Thanks for the sum up Smile
That is my problem so far with Ryan. I haven't really heard him explain anything, or be specific at all. Whether I agree with him or not, I would still like to hear him explain with specifics.

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My random thoughts:

I thought this debate was much better to watch than the last. I would concur with most of what Stacey said.

I think Biden came out and did what he needed to do and nailed it. I agree that some of his mannerism will be off-putting to some and he was very interrupt-y, but overall he said what needed to be said and looked casual and comfortable doing it.

I think Biden calling out the fact that there are no specifics on the tax plan/deficit stuff was fantastic, because it was obvious that Ryan refused to offer any up.

The moment when Martha asked about abortions and if those who feel it should remain legal should be worried....and even though Ryan didn't say it out loud, his long pause amounts to a 'yes'

I thought it was really annoying that Ryan did not answer the question right before closing statements that was asked of him and instead took it as a moment to reiterate everything he thinks about Obama.

As a Catholic, I found the religion question fascinating.

I think Martha asked highly specific questions and I enjoyed that a lot more this time around than in the presidential debate.

Some of the commentary afterwards was very interesting. They commented a lot about the two different styles of debate they both had and how those styles are somewhat generational. Biden's style being more of a kitchen table, relaxed style and Ryan's a more polished and stiff style. They talked about media and television and how it played a role in changing the way politicians present themselves in these situations.

To summarize: I think both did fairly well, i think Biden did better. From a swing voter standpoint, i think Biden did a better job of making those viewers question their vote for Romney than the other way around. But that those who aren't as concerned about substance will have possibly found Biden annoying and that might be a superficial turnoff, but a turnoff nonetheless.

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I couldnt stand Biden, I thought he was a total jackass. And then when he lied about what the administration knew in the question about Libya he lost all credibility.

I feel like Ryan was giving more specific answers this time, Biden kept interrupting him though and that was annoying.

Not sure if this will change the minds of independent voters, but the fact check this morning was very interesting

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I love Joe Biden so much. What a hoot. I think my favorite part was when he said "So you're Jack Kennedy now???" I was rolling.

Patten Oswald pretty much summed it up perfectly. He tweeted (I'm paraphrasing) that Ryan was like the nervous Walmart manager, and Biden was the angry customer with a receipt.

Kim, thank you for your thoughtful analysis. I agree with what you wrote, I'm just in too silly a mood today to say anything serious or insightful. Blum 3

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"mom3girls" wrote:

I couldnt stand Biden, I thought he was a total jackass. And then when he lied about what the administration knew in the question about Libya he lost all credibility.

I feel like Ryan was giving more specific answers this time, Biden kept interrupting him though and that was annoying.

Not sure if this will change the minds of independent voters, but the fact check this morning was very interesting

Were there things in particular that you are thinking of in the fact checking, aside from the Libya comment that you already mentioned? Because the fact check sites that I looked at seemed pretty evenly sprinkled between the two as far as fallacies or misquotes....honestly, i found Ryan's list to be a little more bothersome, but thats probably general bias...because I think overall they were fairly close.

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I watched the whole thing twice. Once on my own, then DH watched it online when he got home from work.

I thought Biden was very rude and unprofessional. He appealed to people who were already going to vote for Obama. Not to people who were still making up their minds or Republicans. One thing that struck me was his policy on Afghanistan. Biden wanted just a few people left there trusting the Afghan people to protect the remaining people there. As Ryan pointed out, that leaves the soldiers there in extreme danger. Since our friend died last week, we have been more sensitive to the news reports. People are dying over there every single day.

Overall, my news feed on FB was full of at least 50 commits on how rude Biden was and how unprofessional he was. I do feel that Ryan could have been a little more aggressive, but I would rather professionalism in a person who is just a heart beat away from being POTUS.

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"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

I watched the whole thing twice. Once on my own, then DH watched it online when he got home from work.

I thought Biden was very rude and unprofessional. He appealed to people who were already going to vote for Obama. Not to people who were still making up their minds or Republicans.

Several different analysis i saw stated that both VP candidates really 'talked' to their own crowds last night, i tend to agree.....aside from the fact that Ryan and Romney's new favorite words are 'middle class'.

Overall, my news feed on FB was full of at least 50 commits on how rude Biden was and how unprofessional he was.

Not sure, but i would imagine your FB newfeed is somewhat right leaning? Mine is probably slightly to the left. I have a lot of liberal friends and DH's family is very liberal, but my family is crazy conservative and DH and iwent to a ridiculously conservative catholic college. My feed hardly focused on Biden's behavior at all.

I do feel that Ryan could have been a little more aggressive, but I would rather professionalism in a person who is just a heart beat away from being POTUS.

Its interesting...in both debates, the one who seemed to come out the bigger winner (albeit the VP debate was way closer than the presidential) was the one who was considered more aggressive and ruder.

Someone made an interesting comment last night....actually a few people referenced it. Something about how when your opponent focuses more on your mannerisms and personality than your content, its a good sign that you won.

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"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

CNN Poll: Debate watchers split on who won VP debate – CNN Political Ticker - CNN.com Blogs

This doesn't really prove anything, and most political experts will tell you the quick polls after the event are unreliable.

Most political experts will also tell you that the VP debate is actually fairly inconsequential anyway...and all the debates actually.

However i still enjoy them Smile

Also, 381 people participated in that poll.....really, how useful is that.

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"KimPossible" wrote:

This doesn't really prove anything, and most political experts will tell you the quick polls after the event are unreliable.

Most political experts will also tell you that the VP debate is actually fairly inconsequential anyway...and all the debates actually.

However i still enjoy them Smile

Also, 381 people participated in that poll.....really, how useful is that.

There is nothing to prove. All I am saying is that you can't say Biden was a clear winner.

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For balance, and to show how wildly quick results polls can fluctuate or differ:

Poll: Biden takes debate over Ryan, uncommitted voters say - CBS News

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"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

There is nothing to prove. All I am saying is that you can't say Biden was a clear winner.

I've already stated that this was a much closer debate then last time, and I also said Ryan did very well. So i don't think i've suggested that there was a *clear* winner.

I do however have my opinion as to who I think did better, so my comments in regards to who 'won' (i use that term loosely anyway) are to support my personal opinion. And I think the comment about focusing on personality is a poignant one.

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"KimPossible" wrote:

For balance, and to show how wildly quick results polls can fluctuate or differ:

Poll: Biden takes debate over Ryan, uncommitted voters say - CBS News

You have to have a balanced sampling to get a balanced result.

The "uncommitted voters" who participated in this poll are either undecided or have chosen a candidate but say they could still change their minds. They are less likely than voters overall to identify with either of the two major political parties: 58 percent call themselves independents, 17 percent identify as Republicans, and 25 percent say they are Democrats.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

You have to have a balanced sampling to get a balanced result.

They are all uncommitted though, and thats the most important part, to both candidates. Who cares what party they are a part of, if they are uncommitted. And in regards to balance, 50/50 or 33/33/33 would not be helpful to you. Because what you would prefer, is a proportion that is reflective of the uncommitted voters across the US. And i would easily be willing to bet that those who are uncommitted across the US are not divided evently between republicans, independants and dems.

Many more people are registered Dem than Rep. BTW

ETA:, and thats not what i meant by balance. By balance i meant, you throw me out a quick results poll in favor of ryan, and i can throw you out a quick results poll in favor of biden. And NEITHER are likely to reflect the correct proportions of uncommitted voters across the US NOR likely to be accurate.

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I'm sorry but does anyone really believe anymore that the embassy attack in Benghazi had anything to do with a movie trailer? The Obama administration purposely mislead people from the start to cover up the fact that they didn't have enough security there for purely political reasons. After Biden started out with that lie he lost all credibility in my opinion. Then he lost more points when he kept interrupting. 82 times to be exact. I think that was just disprespectful.

RNC: Biden interrupted Ryan 82 times | WashingtonExaminer.com

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

I'm sorry but does anyone really believe anymore that the embassy attack in Benghazi had anything to do with a movie trailer? The Obama administration purposely mislead people from the start to cover up the fact that they didn't have enough security there for purely political reasons. After Biden started out with that lie he lost all credibility in my opinion.

I think painting this as a 'lost all credibility' moment is an easy way out. Something similar to this spoken by the people that you agree with overall in policy would never be considered a 'lost all credibility' moment. People who are trying to decide on who to vote for would be ridiculous to say "Oh, the Lybia thing?" Forget it, i'm not going to listen at all to what Biden has to say about "Taxes, or Medicare, or Abortion...or anything else, he's lost *all* credibility"

I mean really, of all the fallacies presented to date on both sides. I think this is a deflection as to how the debate went as a whole IMO.

Then he lost more points when he kept interrupting. 82 times to be exact. I think that was just disprespectful.

RNC: Biden interrupted Ryan 82 times | WashingtonExaminer.com

Funny how the tides have turned. All of a sudden people should be more respectful in debates. Either that, or its okay to be rude to the moderator, just not your opponent.

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"KimPossible" wrote:

I do however have my opinion as to who I think did better, so my comments in regards to who 'won' (i use that term loosely anyway) are to support my personal opinion. And I think the comment about focusing on personality is a poignant one.

This is fine. I will agree that Biden had a strong showing. To me personally, I think Ryan did better because of how he handled himself. He obviously is closer aligned with what I believe in. Many of the things Biden said are things that I could never ever vote for and would strongly alienate someone who believed as I do. I am sure that the same could be said to the opposite about Ryan.

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"KimPossible" wrote:

Many more people are registered Dem than Rep. BTW

That doesn't mean they will all vote. The polls have been oversampling Democrats for awhile now. They have started to tone it down a little now because now that Romney is pulling ahead they realize that they are going to look stupid if they keep it up.

Republicans and Democrats alike have honed in on the fact that recent media polls are oversampling Democrats. Indeed, we have seen many polls that are heavily skewed. There was the Washington Post/ABC poll that had a +9 Democrat skew in late August. There was the Marquette poll for Wisconsin from two weeks ago with a D+8 sample. And the newest swing state poll from Quinnipiac gave Obama a spread between Democrats and Republicans that was even greater than the historic Democrat advantage in 2008, a seven point spread between voters identifying themselves as Democrats or Republicans at 39 percent to 32 percent, in each state they polled.

In a recent interview, Romney pollster Neil Newhouse made the argument that these mainstream polls are skewed in favor of Obama. “I don’t think [the polls] reflect the composition of what 2012 is going to look like,” he said.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/09/27/truth-about-2012-polls/#ixzz2966iszXo

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"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

Many of the things Biden said are things that I could never ever vote for and would strongly alienate someone who believed as I do.

Keep in mind, the debate isn't really meant to get people who believe as you do to vote for Biden(and Obama). Or people like me to vote for Ryan(and Romney). You are a committed voter and everything that I've seen you say would lead me to believe you are unwaivering in that stance. Who really matters is actually people who don't think like you...or me.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

That doesn't mean they will all vote. The polls have been oversampling Democrats for awhile now. They have started to tone it down a little now because now that Romney is pulling ahead they realize that they are going to look stupid if they keep it up.

You've missed my point. My point was one about math. You seemed to suggest that the poll should have been evenly split between reps, dems and independents. And my point was "thats no more accurate and would only be true if the proportions of uncommitted voters was also evenly split between reps, dems and independents"

And my OVERALL point was that these types of poll results are rather useless to begin with.

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"KimPossible" wrote:

Were there things in particular that you are thinking of in the fact checking, aside from the Libya comment that you already mentioned? Because the fact check sites that I looked at seemed pretty evenly sprinkled between the two as far as fallacies or misquotes....honestly, i found Ryan's list to be a little more bothersome, but thats probably general bias...because I think overall they were fairly close.

I agree they were close in their misrepresentation of facts. I found Bidens list to be more bothersome, again probably bias. I think the Libya things is just big right now and Biden should have been better prepared for dealing with it. With all the testimony going on in Congress the day before saying there was not a single bit of intelligence coming out saying it was a spontaneous riot, he looked like he was trying very hard to deceiveer.

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I don't see how anyone that cares about the troops in Afghanistan can not be extremely worried about what will happen to them if Obama is elected after Biden's attitude about it. Maybe I am a little biased because my son is there but I thought it was very scary that it seems like politics mean more to the Obama administration than the safety of our soldiers. Especially when even reporters are starting to speak out about how this administration is trying to cover things up to spin them their way.

CBS reporter slams administration for 'major lie' over weakened Taliban | Fox News

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Biden had at least two lies, I would have to factcheck online for the rest - #1 was when he emphatically said to the camera that anyone denied benefits on Medicare to tell him.. implying there wasn't any.. TONS of people I know on medicare have been denied. #2 saying Catholic based hospitals don't have to pay for abortions via their healthcare plans.
Also his thoughts on Iran obtaining an nuclear weapon..saying they have "nothing to put it in" sounded like a Kindergarten argument.. One can easily HIDE a container.. seriously.. there was a Russian military plane dug up over there about 9 years ago, out of the sand!

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"KimPossible" wrote:

Several different analysis i saw stated that both VP candidates really 'talked' to their own crowds last night, i tend to agree.....aside from the fact that Ryan and Romney's new favorite words are 'middle class'.

Not sure, but i would imagine your FB newfeed is somewhat right leaning? Mine is probably slightly to the left. I have a lot of liberal friends and DH's family is very liberal, but my family is crazy conservative and DH and iwent to a ridiculously conservative catholic college. My feed hardly focused on Biden's behavior at all.

Its interesting...in both debates, the one who seemed to come out the bigger winner (albeit the VP debate was way closer than the presidential) was the one who was considered more aggressive and ruder.

Someone made an interesting comment last night....actually a few people referenced it. Something about how when your opponent focuses more on your mannerisms and personality than your content, its a good sign that you won.

Actually, I think feeling the need to not let someone finish their thought over and over and over again means that you know that what they are going to say is something you don't want to let people hear. I'm not a fan of any of the candidates we have, but I think it's insane to pretend like his behavior had anything to do with mannerisms and personality and are instead, a lack of both.

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"wlillie" wrote:

Actually, I think feeling the need to not let someone finish their thought over and over and over again means that you know that what they are going to say is something you don't want to let people hear. I'm not a fan of any of the candidates we have, but I think it's insane to pretend like his behavior had anything to do with mannerisms and personality and are instead, a lack of both.

Totally it was the FIRST time ever that I was embarrassed to have my sons watch a debate with me and say.. "that is our Vice President". Never has the President or VP ever acted like that during a debate, nor any candidate, it was rude, uncalled for, and I would have punished my children if they had acted like that in public.

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"wlillie" wrote:

Actually, I think feeling the need to not let someone finish their thought over and over and over again means that you know that what they are going to say is something you don't want to let people hear. I'm not a fan of any of the candidates we have, but I think it's insane to pretend like his behavior had anything to do with mannerisms and personality and are instead, a lack of both.

Okay, again my point was missed. Put in the word 'behavior' for 'mannerisms and personality' and its the same thing, you dont' like my choice of words, put whatever word you want int here.

And my other point was Romney's behavior was just as rude it he presidential debate, not to Obama, but to Leher, and very little was said by any Rep. about that. This is just something for Reps to focus on.

Either you think rude behavior is acceptable or its not. When it doesn't effect your view of Romney, but does of Biden, its not very convincing.

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neither Romney nor Obama laughed at each other mockingly. Both Obama and Romney interrupted each other I would say equally. And Obama was just as "rude" to Leher as Romney, I saw them as equal there.

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"KimPossible" wrote:

Okay, again my point was missed. Put in the word 'behavior' for 'mannerisms and personality' and its the same thing, you dont' like my choice of words, put whatever word you want int here.

And my other point was Romney's behavior was just as rude it he presidential debate, not to Obama, but to Leher, and very little was said by any Rep. about that. This is just something for Reps to focus on.

Either you think rude behavior is acceptable or its not. When it doesn't effect your view of Romney, but does of Biden, its not very convincing.

I think there was a big difference between the way Romney acted and the way Biden acted. A huge difference

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"Rivergallery" wrote:

neither Romney nor Obama laughed at each other mockingly. Both Obama and Romney interrupted each other I would say equally. And Obama was just as "rude" to Leher as Romney, I saw them as equal there.

I said Romney was rude the the moderator. And he really was...way more rude than Obama was. Leher would tell him he needed to stop and he would just plow over him completely ignoring anything Jim said. He was way worse than Obama was at this.

Its like i said earlier in this debate, i guess its just acceptable to be rude to the moderator, not your opponent. Or maybe its acceptable to be rude if you are a republican, but not democrat.

Or maybe what it is, is really how rude you are is not a main issue and only worthy of bringing up if its the person you've already planned on not voting for.

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"KimPossible" wrote:

Okay, again my point was missed. Put in the word 'behavior' for 'mannerisms and personality' and its the same thing, you dont' like my choice of words, put whatever word you want int here.

And my other point was Romney's behavior was just as rude it he presidential debate, not to Obama, but to Leher, and very little was said by any Rep. about that. This is just something for Reps to focus on.

Either you think rude behavior is acceptable or its not. When it doesn't effect your view of Romney, but does of Biden, its not very convincing.

I watched both debates. There was no comparison to how Biden acted. Quite honest, I was very shocked that after the last debate that people posted about how rude Romney was and how that left a bad taste in their mouth, but at the same time think how Biden acted is completely fine.

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"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

I watched both debates. There was no comparison to how Biden acted. Quite honest, I was very shocked that after the last debate that people posted about how rude Romney was and how that left a bad taste in their mouth, but at the same time think how Biden acted is completely fine.

I watched both debates too, and i totally disagree with you. Romney was definitely very rude to Lehrer. Perhaps you are shocked, but like you said people were talking about it and i definitely agree with it.

I'm not entirely interested in 'who was more rude'...they both were, i think they could have been both labeled as *very* rude regardless of which one takes first place. And i think its totally hypocritical to act like its a huge deal for one and not the other or say its not okay to laugh or interrupt your opponent with more frequency than he interrupts you, buts it not a huge deal to pretty much talk over and ignore your moderator every single time he tries to stop you.

While everyone is entitled to their opinion, i find the fact that you found Biden to be extremely rude and shocked that Romney was even mentioned as rude very interesting.

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[QUOTE=KimPossible;9002699

While everyone is entitled to their opinion, i find the fact that you found Biden to be extremely rude and shocked that Romney was even mentioned as rude very interesting.[/QUOTE]

I am sorry, I must have worded wrong what I meant. What I meant to say was that I was shocked that the people who felt Romney was rude did not think Biden was. I had been thinking that after the responses to Romney, that people would have been equally or more upset with Biden. Instead, people who were appalled with Romney, thought Biden's behaviour was fine.

It is not a major big deal. I was just surprised. As I was watching the debate I was interested in how it would play out on the debate board. I just was not expecting the responses that have been given.

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"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

I am sorry, I must have worded wrong what I meant. What I meant to say was that I was shocked that the people who felt Romney was rude did not think Biden was.

I wonder how many people fall into that category really. I didn't really keep tally about who mentioned Romney's behavior and then a week or so later didn't say anything about Biden. I know i remarked about both of their behaviors, personally.

I had been thinking that after the responses to Romney, that people would have been equally or more upset with Biden. Instead, people who were appalled with Romney, thought Biden's behaviour was fine.

I can't speak for anyone else, but i wasn't that upset with Romney. I mentioned it as obnoxious but actually said that overall Romney didn't come off as obnoxious as he usually does...and i think he clearly did better overall. And then this time around, i acknowledged Biden's behavior as probably off-putting to deciding voters, but said that i think overall he went out there and did what he had to do.

Both times i feel like it was a side story....the content was much more important.

I personally felt like it was the opposite..that i see a lot of conservatives uproaring about Biden's behavior and making it a *main* talking point that really didn't say much about Romney.

It must be just a matter of the different perspectives we have.

It is not a major big deal.

I feel like some people are presenting it as such....in this thread even.

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Arg. I had a whole response typed out and then lost internet connection and lost the whole thing.

I can only speak for myself, but to me, all four candidates and both moderators interrupted each other. Some more so than others, but only Biden laughed and mocked his opponent. It was more than just his demeanour though. At one point he said (I do not remember the exact quote) something like "If you would just move out of the way". I think there are roughly 30% Republican's in the US. It was like he was saying "You all need to just get out of the way. You do not matter." I am not sure I can explain exactly what I am trying to say but saying that, in combination with his manner just made me feel like as Vice President of the US, he feels like he is only there to serve the Democrats. I am not saying he is the first man in history to do that, I am sure there are many others on both sides that have.

It was just my impression of the debate. You are right that in the grand scheme of things it does not matter and I doubt it will sway the election that much.

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"Rivergallery" wrote:

Biden had at least two lies, I would have to factcheck online for the rest - #1 was when he emphatically said to the camera that anyone denied benefits on Medicare to tell him.. implying there wasn't any.. TONS of people I know on medicare have been denied. #2 saying Catholic based hospitals don't have to pay for abortions via their healthcare plans.
Also his thoughts on Iran obtaining an nuclear weapon..saying they have "nothing to put it in" sounded like a Kindergarten argument.. One can easily HIDE a container.. seriously.. there was a Russian military plane dug up over there about 9 years ago, out of the sand!

I guess the Catholic bishops agree with you on #2 they are speaking out about it.

Catholic bishops: Biden

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Well Obama pissed off the old people (AARP)
and Biden pissed off his own church Wink