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  1. #31
    Posting Addict mom2robbie's Avatar
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    I am pretty sure that before surgery is done for transgenders they have to go through a lot of counselling and live as the sex they are wanting to change to for a period of time.

    I would also be concerned about the cost of care after the surgery. I have friends that are paraplegic and they have a lot of expenses.

    I think that she needs a lot of counselling/therapy.
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  2. #32
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    Assisted suicide, when the person is terminal, is a completely different matter. It's not the same at all.

    And I would never compare abortion to liposuction. Of course it's all "elective" surgery if you're not being rushed into an emergency room, but that doesn't mean it's the same thing.

    When someone wants to become paraplegic, that's a psychiatric disorder. It's been diagnosed, in fact. I confess I feel the same way about transsexuals. I have a great deal of compassion for someone who truly feels like they are the wrong gender, and I know this is so deeply felt by some that it affects their entire lives. But I still believe that it's a psychological/psychiatric disorder and should be treated as such, and not addressed physically, although if the person chooses to DRESS as the gender they prefer, I don't think that's the same type of issue.

    Getting an abortion has nothing to do with psychological disorders. It's not the same thing at all.

    Yes people should have a say over their own bodies but if it's an illness or disorder that is causing them to want the surgery then it goes into a different realm.

    That is the difference for me. This woman is ILL and needs help...the right kind of help.
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  3. #33
    Posting Addict Rivergallery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freddieflounder101 View Post
    Assisted suicide, when the person is terminal, is a completely different matter. It's not the same at all.

    And I would never compare abortion to liposuction. Of course it's all "elective" surgery if you're not being rushed into an emergency room, but that doesn't mean it's the same thing.

    When someone wants to become paraplegic, that's a psychiatric disorder. It's been diagnosed, in fact. I confess I feel the same way about transsexuals. I have a great deal of compassion for someone who truly feels like they are the wrong gender, and I know this is so deeply felt by some that it affects their entire lives. But I still believe that it's a psychological/psychiatric disorder and should be treated as such, and not addressed physically, although if the person chooses to DRESS as the gender they prefer, I don't think that's the same type of issue.

    Getting an abortion has nothing to do with psychological disorders. It's not the same thing at all.

    Yes people should have a say over their own bodies but if it's an illness or disorder that is causing them to want the surgery then it goes into a different realm.

    That is the difference for me. This woman is ILL and needs help...the right kind of help.
    It is all so interesting to me where we draw the line in our society. Our body is ours and we can do with it what we want.. but there is a point... Boob Jobs fine, removing breasts because we have a cancer Gene.. controversial, liposuction ok, Abortion big huge split down the middle, transgender big split it seems, and this issue the majority is against.

    Not sure why assisted suicide is different at all, you are harming your body.. should there be limits?
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivergallery View Post
    It is all so interesting to me where we draw the line in our society. Our body is ours and we can do with it what we want.. but there is a point... Boob Jobs fine, removing breasts because we have a cancer Gene.. controversial, liposuction ok, Abortion big huge split down the middle, transgender big split it seems, and this issue the majority is against.

    Not sure why assisted suicide is different at all, you are harming your body.. should there be limits?
    I think the splits come from two things

    1)A Sympathy Factor and 2)A tangible consequence on society factor

    Boob Job - probably a wide range of sympathy here but the consequence factor is minimal
    Masectomy for cancer gene - lots of sympathy, positive tangible consequence on society
    Abortion - lots of sympathy, positive tangible consequence on society
    Transgender - lots of sympathy, fairly inconsequential to society
    Assisted suicide - lots of sympathy, fairly inconsequential to society
    This woman - very little sympathy, very negative tangible consequences

    I'm being brief in my phrasing, so try not to read too much into what i mean.

    Those ones that are more split/controversial, i think its because either the sympathy, or the consequences are disputed/outweighed by intangible consequences by a significant portion of society.

    ETA: To me what this means is the 'Do no harm' rule is actually pretty flexible and that there are other factors that matter more when it comes down to how we really feel about these types of things. I actually don't have a problem with that.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by KimPossible View Post
    ETA: To me what this means is the 'Do no harm' rule is actually pretty flexible and that there are other factors that matter more when it comes down to how we really feel about these types of things. I actually don't have a problem with that.
    Yep.

    It's not an absolute, "do no harm", that's not the line I draw and measure everything against. In fact I didn't even bring it up as an argument.

    This woman clearly wants to harm herself, she has a psychological disorder. Totally different from a healthy person deciding to get bigger or smaller boobs.
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  6. #36
    Posting Addict Rivergallery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KimPossible View Post
    I think the splits come from two things

    1)A Sympathy Factor and 2)A tangible consequence on society factor

    Boob Job - probably a wide range of sympathy here but the consequence factor is minimal
    Masectomy for cancer gene - lots of sympathy, positive tangible consequence on society
    Abortion - lots of sympathy, positive tangible consequence on society
    Transgender - lots of sympathy, fairly inconsequential to society
    Assisted suicide - lots of sympathy, fairly inconsequential to society
    This woman - very little sympathy, very negative tangible consequences

    I'm being brief in my phrasing, so try not to read too much into what i mean.

    Those ones that are more split/controversial, i think its because either the sympathy, or the consequences are disputed/outweighed by intangible consequences by a significant portion of society.

    ETA: To me what this means is the 'Do no harm' rule is actually pretty flexible and that there are other factors that matter more when it comes down to how we really feel about these types of things. I actually don't have a problem with that.
    I so totally see your points.
    And do think that the ones that are so controversial is because of sympathy.. and people dispute the consequences to society for sure.

    It is also interesting to see where these percieved consequences to society come from... Where does our judgement come from.. I think if one has a measure for such things that doesn't change it is valuable. For many this becomes or stems from a religious belief. I think it is helpful if your beliefs do not conflict in matters... and IF you believe abortion is a choice but this isn't.. be able in your own mind explain why.. based on something outside yourself.

    For me I think they are both wrong.. but some things seem ok.. the surgeries that are improving life.. IE knee surgery, toncilectomy etc. However.. my view gets a little blurry on items like liposuction.. it could be wrong I think in cases of pride, or envy (but the pride or envy is the "sin" not the action of liposuction). It would be like saying exercising is always ok.. well in some cases it can be done out of selfishness, vainness etc..

    It is interesting also.. to see WHEN do we want the government to control our choices.. when is it something we as a society shun. From drugs, to surgeries, to birthing children.. we have a wide variety of lines and reasons for them.. And within subgroups the lines even waiver... and they often waiver within each person like we saw in this thread.

    For me there are three categories-
    Sin
    Neither positive nor negative.
    Good.

    BUT, that is because I base most of my views on a religious basis.. others base their views on other things .
    DH-Aug 30th 1997 Josiah - 6/3/02 Isaac 7/31/03

  7. #37
    Posting Addict Rivergallery's Avatar
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    dbl pst
    Last edited by Rivergallery; 07-18-2013 at 10:25 AM.
    DH-Aug 30th 1997 Josiah - 6/3/02 Isaac 7/31/03

  8. #38
    Prolific Poster ftmom's Avatar
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    So DH stole the computer after I responded yesterday What I was thinking was more what the reason for the surgery is, not necessarily the result. The desire or goal when one has transgendered surgery is to become a whole healthy woman whos body matches her mind. This woman also wants a body that matches what her mind is telling her, but the desire or goal of this surgery is a body that is disabled. I think that is a huge difference for a Dr.
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  9. #39
    Posting Addict Rivergallery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freddieflounder101 View Post
    Yep.

    It's not an absolute, "do no harm", that's not the line I draw and measure everything against. In fact I didn't even bring it up as an argument.

    This woman clearly wants to harm herself, she has a psychological disorder. Totally different from a healthy person deciding to get bigger or smaller boobs.
    The "psychological disorder" is based on our societal schisms. The definitions of what is or isn't a psychological disorder change. Homosexuality comes to mind right away, it used to be listed in the DSM. Why is it a disorder...? Because you disagree with it.. or because society says so.. or because of something outside of you and society?
    DH-Aug 30th 1997 Josiah - 6/3/02 Isaac 7/31/03

  10. #40
    Posting Addict KimPossible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ftmom View Post
    So DH stole the computer after I responded yesterday What I was thinking was more what the reason for the surgery is, not necessarily the result. The desire or goal when one has transgendered surgery is to become a whole healthy woman whos body matches her mind. This woman also wants a body that matches what her mind is telling her, but the desire or goal of this surgery is a body that is disabled. I think that is a huge difference for a Dr.
    I know this isn't the main point of the debate but this notion that sex reassignment surgery doesn't somehow disable you I think is pretty flawed. You are left with non working parts no matter how you look at it IMO, as a man or a woman, becomeing a man or a woman.

    I feel like we talk about it so non chalantly these days that we are actually believing that this surgery does more than it actually does.

    These people are simply disabled in a way they are fine with. They are fine with having no sexual or reproducive parts that work the way they are intended to.

    ETA: I still maintain we turn our eye to the one type of disablement over the other because we see much larger negative impacts on society and those around her for this girl Chloe.

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