Woman wants to be Paraplegic

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GloriaInTX's picture
Joined: 07/29/08
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Woman wants to be Paraplegic

Should this woman be allowed to have surgery to become a paraplegic if that is what she wants? She compares it to transgender surgery... do you think it is the same thing? Why or why not?

In places where the government pays for transgender surgery should this surgery be covered too?

BEING stuck in a wheelchair and forced to wear leg braces is most people?s idea of hell ? but not for Chloe Jennings-White.

The able-bodied 58-year-old longs to be PARAPLEGIC. She even wants to have totally unnecessary spinal surgery to stop her legs working.

Not even Chloe understood her strange, long-held desire until five years ago.

That is when she was diagnosed with Body Integrity Identity Disorder.

It is a very rare psychological condition. BIID makes sufferers feel they want to be disabled.

At home Chloe uses a wheelchair, even though she can walk. But that is not going far enough for her.

Speaking exclusively to The Sun, Chloe says: ?My dream is to find a surgeon who will operate on my spine to stop my legs working.?

In 2010 she found an overseas doctor willing to cut her sciatic and femoral nerves, meaning she would lose all sensation in her legs, but at ?16,000 it was way beyond her means.

She says: ?I?ll never be able to afford it, but I know I won?t regret it if I ever can, and I don?t know why it upsets people.
?It?s the same as a transsexual man having his penis cut off. It?s never coming back, but they know it?s what they want.?

Chloe has now bought a wheelchair on the internet and uses it to go about her everyday life.

Full story: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/woman/health/health/5015384/i-want-surgery-to-be-disabled.html#ixzz2ZK9mVvwc

Joined: 03/08/03
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Ugh. I know I'm a jerk for saying this, but I don't think she should be allowed to do this, and I am a bigger jerk by saying that I also don't think they should do sex change operations.

I'm sorry, I just don't.

I think a psychological disorder like hers should be treated psychologically, not physically.

ClairesMommy's picture
Joined: 08/15/06
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Doctors take an oath to 'first do no harm'. I cannot imagine any scenario where a doctor could intentionally irreparably injure a patient because it's what the patient wants, no matter what kind of psychological disorder they have.

KimPossible's picture
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"ClairesMommy" wrote:

Doctors take an oath to 'first do no harm'. I cannot imagine any scenario where a doctor could intentionally irreparably injure a patient because it's what the patient wants, no matter what kind of psychological disorder they have.

I thought this too at first, but unfortunately she's right...chopping off a man's penis because he didn't want it anymore is an example of just that.

ftmom's picture
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This is my thought. She is asking to be given a permanent disability. Is being a woman a disability? Last time I checked it wasnt, so I dont think the two are comparable.

Spacers's picture
Joined: 12/29/03
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In sex change operations, they don't chop off the penis & toss it; they re-fashion it into a vagina.

I don't think the comparison is the same at all. Transgendered people don't have a psychological disorder; they have the wrong body. Surgery corrects that biological mistake, and surgery is the only way to "treat" the problem, and they still end up with a perfectly normal fully-functional body.

This woman has a psychological disorder for the which the best treatment is psychological help. Surgery would leave her with an abnormal, non-functioning body, and that is not what medicine and doctors are supposed to do. Being left a parapeligic is supposed to be the sad result of whatever else they're trying to fix, not the anticipated end result.

Joined: 05/31/06
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No. Just no. If she couldn't afford the 16k who the hell does she expect to foot the bill for her incredibly costly lifelong care? She needs psych help stat.

KimPossible's picture
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"ftmom" wrote:

This is my thought. She is asking to be given a permanent disability. Is being a woman a disability? Last time I checked it wasnt, so I dont think the two are comparable.

I'm sorry but cutting off your penis doesn't make you a woman...it makes you a man without a penis,psychologically making you feel more like a woman.

Rivergallery's picture
Joined: 05/23/03
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Isn't it her body? Isn't it her choice?

Joined: 03/08/03
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"KimPossible" wrote:

I'm sorry but cutting off your penis doesn't make you a woman...it makes you a man without a penis,psychologically making you feel more like a woman.

I agree. It doesn't make you fully functional either. You never get the full functionality of the other gender.

Spacers's picture
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"Rivergallery" wrote:

Isn't it her body? Isn't it her choice?

She could throw herself off her roof onto some strategically placed concrete blocks or something like that, if she really wanted to be paralyzed. She wants it without the pain & trauma that most people have to experience to get there.

Rivergallery's picture
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Abortion, Assisted Suicide ment.

"Spacers" wrote:

She could throw herself off her roof onto some strategically placed concrete blocks or something like that, if she really wanted to be paralyzed. She wants it without the pain & trauma that most people have to experience to get there.

Are you for death with dignity?

Why can a dr.. do harm in some peoples opinion but not in others.. either a dr is supposed to value LIFE or not...?

Yes good TOPIC Gloria.. seems like another natural cross over.

Joined: 03/08/03
Posts: 3179

It is an interesting point, that's for sure.

I know that I feel strongly about how a doctor shouldn't perform this procedure, and yet I am 100% pro choice, which I know is what Rivergallery is getting at. (Best to just be direct, no? The question is, how is abortion okay but this isn't?)

So I need to think about this to figure out how best to express what is different about it, because it is, to me, completely different. I'm heading out to a yoga class soon but I will think on this.

Rivergallery's picture
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"freddieflounder101" wrote:

It is an interesting point, that's for sure.

I know that I feel strongly about how a doctor shouldn't perform this procedure, and yet I am 100% pro choice, which I know is what Rivergallery is getting at. (Best to just be direct, no? The question is, how is abortion okay but this isn't?)

So I need to think about this to figure out how best to express what is different about it, because it is, to me, completely different. I'm heading out to a yoga class soon but I will think on this.

Yes, that and Dr. assisted suicide.. aka death with dignity.
Are they different? if so why?

To me they are not.. and a Dr. shouldn't be in the business of death or elective surgery..

Maybe that is the difference.. seeing the abortion more as an elective surgery like liposuction?

KimPossible's picture
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"Spacers" wrote:

In sex change operations, they don't chop off the penis & toss it; they re-fashion it into a vagina.

Except its not a vagina.

I don't think the comparison is the same at all. Transgendered people don't have a psychological disorder; they have the wrong body.

What does that actually mean on a scientific level?

Surgery corrects that biological mistake,

But it doesn't really.

and surgery is the only way to "treat" the problem, and they still end up with a perfectly normal fully-functional body.

I would disagree that it is fully-functioning. It is functioning in an acceptable manner to them. Ask someone who has lost their penis and did not want to if they would consider them fully functioning if someone fashioned them a vagina. Someone who is a man and wants to be a woman finds their newly surgically altered body acceptably functioning, to them. I think there are a lot of parallels to this woman in the OT.

I'm really actually undecided about it. The comparison to transgendered surgery makes me go 'hmmm' and makes me have to think about lots of things. My issue is, regardless of social acceptance, i'm going to have a very difficult time accepting one of these scenarios and not the other.

Surgery would leave her with an abnormal, non-functioning body, and that is not what medicine and doctors are supposed to do.

Her body will function in a manner acceptable to her.

Being left a parapeligic is supposed to be the sad result of whatever else they're trying to fix, not the anticipated end result.

Sure to the average person. What if there is no cure for her mental disorder? What if the only way to appease her desire is to physically alter her body?

KimPossible's picture
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"Potter75" wrote:

No. Just no. If she couldn't afford the 16k who the hell does she expect to foot the bill for her incredibly costly lifelong care? She needs psych help stat.

Oh and i do agree, i would have a problem with this being covered by any insurance..and again...with the transgender comparison it admittedly makes me go 'hmmmm'.

Joined: 08/17/04
Posts: 2226

I don't agree with a doctor doing this surgery or covered by insurance.

Being a paraplegic leads to other needs for care, wheelchairs, medical visits, etc. Who is paying that? Clearly not her because over time it's going to be over 16000.

Why is it different than a sex change?

I'm not really that excited about insurance covering a sex change but I don't think it has negative connotations. Me turning into a man physically isn't going to automatically lead to a drain on services. I can still be a productive member of society.

Why is it different than right to choose abortion? It just is to me for the above reason.

*Please don't think that I think paraplegics do not add to society, that's not what is meant by not being a productive member*

KimPossible's picture
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"Jessica80" wrote:

Why is it different than a sex change?

I'm not really that excited about insurance covering a sex change but I don't think it has negative connotations. Me turning into a man physically isn't going to automatically lead to a drain on services. I can still be a productive member of society.

So the difference here just boils down to a money thing?

Joined: 08/17/04
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Well, no. It was previously stated that doctors wouldn't harm and I agree with that too. I don't think abortions harm a woman nor do I think sex changes harm people.

This does.

KimPossible's picture
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"Jessica80" wrote:

Well, no. It was previously stated that doctors wouldn't harm and I agree with that too. I don't think abortions harm a woman nor do I think sex changes harm people.

This does.

See I dont' see how you can't say a sex change doesn't harm someone. That would be dependant on the individual. Sex change surgery would most definitely be considered harm to the vast majority of the population....as would what this woman wants.

Rivergallery's picture
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"Jessica80" wrote:

Well, no. It was previously stated that doctors wouldn't harm and I agree with that too. I don't think abortions harm a woman nor do I think sex changes harm people.

This does.

What about Dr. assisted Suicide?

Purposefully leaving out that abortion does HARM to the fetus. But an abortion can kill you.. a complication of the surgery.. but that is the same with any I think.. IE there are risks with gallbladder surgery.. knee surgery.. HOWEVER most are to improve our physical bodies..

ETA- There is an increase is breast cancer noted in some studies due to abortion.. never looked into the scientific theory of it all to see how valid it was.

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I know what you mean Kim but I don't think we are looking at "harm" in the same way.

I'm looking at harm in the way that it takes away function so that you cannot work your body in the way it was intended

Granted, if I decided to have sex change then I don't have usage of my vagina as it is now but I can be a functional male.

KimPossible's picture
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"Jessica80" wrote:

I know what you mean Kim but I don't think we are looking at "harm" in the same way.

I'm looking at harm in the way that it takes away function so that you cannot work your body in the way it was intended

Granted, if I decided to have sex change then I don't have usage of my vagina as it is now but I can be a functional male.

Not really, you will now be neither a fully functional male or female.

ETA: This is what I mean....we are being very liberal with the word functioning for someone who has gender identity issues. For the average person, it would not be an acceptable level of function. Much like this woman, but to her, it is an acceptable level.

ETA again: I think what this comes down to is a social acceptance issue and nothing more. We are far more accepting of a man who wants to be a woman, or vice versa, and removing their biological functions and replacing them with an inadequate substitute because we are more sympathetic to their cause and plight.

If this woman has a true psychological disorder, it may not be something she can just 'get over'. I did a brief lookup on it and it seems to be an extension a lot of the time of this psychological perception that your extremities are not your own. I didn't see anything very 'cure like' mentioned either.

I include myself in that....I feel far more sympathetic to a transgender person then someone who wants to be an amputee. But logically, I am struggling with finding a true differentiation.

Joined: 08/17/04
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You are probably right. I don't think she can get over it but I think it's much more harmful overall. To her, to society.

RG~It's true that we are ending function with AS so I'm not sure why I'm okay with it then.

I think I need to just go to bed. I normally work from home and had to commute today and go into the office tomorrow and Friday. Coupled with the fact that my kids hate bed times in the summer....is one tired mom.

Rivergallery's picture
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"Jessica80" wrote:

You are probably right. I don't think she can get over it but I think it's much more harmful overall. To her, to society.

RG~It's true that we are ending function with AS so I'm not sure why I'm okay with it then.

I think I need to just go to bed. I normally work from home and had to commute today and go into the office tomorrow and Friday. Coupled with the fact that my kids hate bed times in the summer....is one tired mom.

No worries real life is more important Wink

fuchsiasky's picture
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I have some serious problems with this woman. I am actually a bit offended by her desires.

DH currently cannot walk and has been wheelchair bound. He is doing everything possible to get out of that chair! People with real physical disabilities don't want them. I feel like her desire is belittling. Disability isn't something that you want.

I also don't like that she is perfectly happy having her wife turn into her fulltime caregiver and maid. Her wife now has to do all the chores and housework because she don't want legs? I'm sorry, honestly, this woman sounds lazy. I would not be willing to be a caregiver to someone like that. Caregiving can suck the life right out of you and if your spouse is doing it on purpose... No. I would probably leave.

Also, how does she plan to live? She will need money. If she doesn't have money for the surgery how will she get care, food etc? Is she planning to have her wife cover it? Is she planning on going on disability benefits? Cause if she is, that isn't ok either. As a taxpayer I have no desire to pay for someone who is disabled on purpose!

So, no, no, no, no!

mom3girls's picture
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I wonder if she also understands the problems that can come with being wheelchair bound, bed sores that turn into absesses, infections that come from catheterizing herself, etc. I think a surgeon that is willing to perform this surgery is unethical and deserves to have his licence to practice revoked

fuchsiasky's picture
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I do think this is a valid psychological issue. She needs help. But not from a surgeon.

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If someone with anorexia walks into a dr and demands diet pills or a lap band do you think that a dr is going to give them to them? If someone with alcoholism wants a vodka IV do you think that they have the right to demand it? If I wanted my arm amputated because it was ugly, or because I was deeply into self harm/cutting, you think a DR should do that? No way. A Dr's role is not to enable disordered thinking, its to help a disordered person get better. If this woman wants to roll around in her wheel chair and play at being disabled that is on her. If she wants to actually throw herself off a roof or something she has that right. She does not have the right to make a medical dr, whose role is to help, DISable her for life, permanently.

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She needs a psychiatrist, not a surgeon.

mom2robbie's picture
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I am pretty sure that before surgery is done for transgenders they have to go through a lot of counselling and live as the sex they are wanting to change to for a period of time.

I would also be concerned about the cost of care after the surgery. I have friends that are paraplegic and they have a lot of expenses.

I think that she needs a lot of counselling/therapy.

Joined: 03/08/03
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Assisted suicide, when the person is terminal, is a completely different matter. It's not the same at all.

And I would never compare abortion to liposuction. Of course it's all "elective" surgery if you're not being rushed into an emergency room, but that doesn't mean it's the same thing.

When someone wants to become paraplegic, that's a psychiatric disorder. It's been diagnosed, in fact. I confess I feel the same way about transsexuals. I have a great deal of compassion for someone who truly feels like they are the wrong gender, and I know this is so deeply felt by some that it affects their entire lives. But I still believe that it's a psychological/psychiatric disorder and should be treated as such, and not addressed physically, although if the person chooses to DRESS as the gender they prefer, I don't think that's the same type of issue.

Getting an abortion has nothing to do with psychological disorders. It's not the same thing at all.

Yes people should have a say over their own bodies but if it's an illness or disorder that is causing them to want the surgery then it goes into a different realm.

That is the difference for me. This woman is ILL and needs help...the right kind of help.

Rivergallery's picture
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"freddieflounder101" wrote:

Assisted suicide, when the person is terminal, is a completely different matter. It's not the same at all.

And I would never compare abortion to liposuction. Of course it's all "elective" surgery if you're not being rushed into an emergency room, but that doesn't mean it's the same thing.

When someone wants to become paraplegic, that's a psychiatric disorder. It's been diagnosed, in fact. I confess I feel the same way about transsexuals. I have a great deal of compassion for someone who truly feels like they are the wrong gender, and I know this is so deeply felt by some that it affects their entire lives. But I still believe that it's a psychological/psychiatric disorder and should be treated as such, and not addressed physically, although if the person chooses to DRESS as the gender they prefer, I don't think that's the same type of issue.

Getting an abortion has nothing to do with psychological disorders. It's not the same thing at all.

Yes people should have a say over their own bodies but if it's an illness or disorder that is causing them to want the surgery then it goes into a different realm.

That is the difference for me. This woman is ILL and needs help...the right kind of help.

It is all so interesting to me where we draw the line in our society. Our body is ours and we can do with it what we want.. but there is a point... Boob Jobs fine, removing breasts because we have a cancer Gene.. controversial, liposuction ok, Abortion big huge split down the middle, transgender big split it seems, and this issue the majority is against.

Not sure why assisted suicide is different at all, you are harming your body.. should there be limits?

KimPossible's picture
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"Rivergallery" wrote:

It is all so interesting to me where we draw the line in our society. Our body is ours and we can do with it what we want.. but there is a point... Boob Jobs fine, removing breasts because we have a cancer Gene.. controversial, liposuction ok, Abortion big huge split down the middle, transgender big split it seems, and this issue the majority is against.

Not sure why assisted suicide is different at all, you are harming your body.. should there be limits?

I think the splits come from two things

1)A Sympathy Factor and 2)A tangible consequence on society factor

Boob Job - probably a wide range of sympathy here but the consequence factor is minimal
Masectomy for cancer gene - lots of sympathy, positive tangible consequence on society
Abortion - lots of sympathy, positive tangible consequence on society
Transgender - lots of sympathy, fairly inconsequential to society
Assisted suicide - lots of sympathy, fairly inconsequential to society
This woman - very little sympathy, very negative tangible consequences

I'm being brief in my phrasing, so try not to read too much into what i mean.

Those ones that are more split/controversial, i think its because either the sympathy, or the consequences are disputed/outweighed by intangible consequences by a significant portion of society.

ETA: To me what this means is the 'Do no harm' rule is actually pretty flexible and that there are other factors that matter more when it comes down to how we really feel about these types of things. I actually don't have a problem with that.

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"KimPossible" wrote:

ETA: To me what this means is the 'Do no harm' rule is actually pretty flexible and that there are other factors that matter more when it comes down to how we really feel about these types of things. I actually don't have a problem with that.

Yep.

It's not an absolute, "do no harm", that's not the line I draw and measure everything against. In fact I didn't even bring it up as an argument.

This woman clearly wants to harm herself, she has a psychological disorder. Totally different from a healthy person deciding to get bigger or smaller boobs.

Rivergallery's picture
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"KimPossible" wrote:

I think the splits come from two things

1)A Sympathy Factor and 2)A tangible consequence on society factor

Boob Job - probably a wide range of sympathy here but the consequence factor is minimal
Masectomy for cancer gene - lots of sympathy, positive tangible consequence on society
Abortion - lots of sympathy, positive tangible consequence on society
Transgender - lots of sympathy, fairly inconsequential to society
Assisted suicide - lots of sympathy, fairly inconsequential to society
This woman - very little sympathy, very negative tangible consequences

I'm being brief in my phrasing, so try not to read too much into what i mean.

Those ones that are more split/controversial, i think its because either the sympathy, or the consequences are disputed/outweighed by intangible consequences by a significant portion of society.

ETA: To me what this means is the 'Do no harm' rule is actually pretty flexible and that there are other factors that matter more when it comes down to how we really feel about these types of things. I actually don't have a problem with that.

I so totally see your points.
And do think that the ones that are so controversial is because of sympathy.. and people dispute the consequences to society for sure.

It is also interesting to see where these percieved consequences to society come from... Where does our judgement come from.. I think if one has a measure for such things that doesn't change it is valuable. For many this becomes or stems from a religious belief. I think it is helpful if your beliefs do not conflict in matters... and IF you believe abortion is a choice but this isn't.. be able in your own mind explain why.. based on something outside yourself.

For me I think they are both wrong.. but some things seem ok.. the surgeries that are improving life.. IE knee surgery, toncilectomy etc. However.. my view gets a little blurry on items like liposuction.. it could be wrong I think in cases of pride, or envy (but the pride or envy is the "sin" not the action of liposuction). It would be like saying exercising is always ok.. well in some cases it can be done out of selfishness, vainness etc..

It is interesting also.. to see WHEN do we want the government to control our choices.. when is it something we as a society shun. From drugs, to surgeries, to birthing children.. we have a wide variety of lines and reasons for them.. And within subgroups the lines even waiver... and they often waiver within each person like we saw in this thread.

For me there are three categories-
Sin
Neither positive nor negative.
Good.

BUT, that is because I base most of my views on a religious basis.. others base their views on other things ;).

Rivergallery's picture
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dbl pst

ftmom's picture
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So DH stole the computer after I responded yesterday Smile What I was thinking was more what the reason for the surgery is, not necessarily the result. The desire or goal when one has transgendered surgery is to become a whole healthy woman whos body matches her mind. This woman also wants a body that matches what her mind is telling her, but the desire or goal of this surgery is a body that is disabled. I think that is a huge difference for a Dr.

Rivergallery's picture
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"freddieflounder101" wrote:

Yep.

It's not an absolute, "do no harm", that's not the line I draw and measure everything against. In fact I didn't even bring it up as an argument.

This woman clearly wants to harm herself, she has a psychological disorder. Totally different from a healthy person deciding to get bigger or smaller boobs.

The "psychological disorder" is based on our societal schisms. The definitions of what is or isn't a psychological disorder change. Homosexuality comes to mind right away, it used to be listed in the DSM. Why is it a disorder...? Because you disagree with it.. or because society says so.. or because of something outside of you and society?

KimPossible's picture
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"ftmom" wrote:

So DH stole the computer after I responded yesterday Smile What I was thinking was more what the reason for the surgery is, not necessarily the result. The desire or goal when one has transgendered surgery is to become a whole healthy woman whos body matches her mind. This woman also wants a body that matches what her mind is telling her, but the desire or goal of this surgery is a body that is disabled. I think that is a huge difference for a Dr.

I know this isn't the main point of the debate but this notion that sex reassignment surgery doesn't somehow disable you I think is pretty flawed. You are left with non working parts no matter how you look at it IMO, as a man or a woman, becomeing a man or a woman.

I feel like we talk about it so non chalantly these days that we are actually believing that this surgery does more than it actually does.

These people are simply disabled in a way they are fine with. They are fine with having no sexual or reproducive parts that work the way they are intended to.

ETA: I still maintain we turn our eye to the one type of disablement over the other because we see much larger negative impacts on society and those around her for this girl Chloe.

Joined: 03/08/03
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"Rivergallery" wrote:

The "psychological disorder" is based on our societal schisms. The definitions of what is or isn't a psychological disorder change. Homosexuality comes to mind right away, it used to be listed in the DSM. Why is it a disorder...? Because you disagree with it.. or because society says so.. or because of something outside of you and society?

I don't see this as a nebulous thing. Homosexuality was a mistake based on prejudice. There will sometimes be more of those. But I'm the daughter of a therapist, I see these things concretely.

My disagreement has nothing to do with anything one way or the other. I "disagree" with the idea that Botox makes people more attractive, but I don't think the people who get it have a psychological disorder. I just think it's a bad decision and they look creepy afterwards.

Joined: 03/08/03
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"Rivergallery" wrote:

I so totally see your points.
And do think that the ones that are so controversial is because of sympathy.. and people dispute the consequences to society for sure.

It is also interesting to see where these percieved consequences to society come from... Where does our judgement come from.. I think if one has a measure for such things that doesn't change it is valuable. For many this becomes or stems from a religious belief. I think it is helpful if your beliefs do not conflict in matters... and IF you believe abortion is a choice but this isn't.. be able in your own mind explain why.. based on something outside yourself.

For me I think they are both wrong.. but some things seem ok.. the surgeries that are improving life.. IE knee surgery, toncilectomy etc. However.. my view gets a little blurry on items like liposuction.. it could be wrong I think in cases of pride, or envy (but the pride or envy is the "sin" not the action of liposuction). It would be like saying exercising is always ok.. well in some cases it can be done out of selfishness, vainness etc..

It is interesting also.. to see WHEN do we want the government to control our choices.. when is it something we as a society shun. From drugs, to surgeries, to birthing children.. we have a wide variety of lines and reasons for them.. And within subgroups the lines even waiver... and they often waiver within each person like we saw in this thread.

For me there are three categories-
Sin
Neither positive nor negative.
Good.

BUT, that is because I base most of my views on a religious basis.. others base their views on other things ;).

I do agree that there are some awfully wiggly lines in all of this, and grey areas. And of course if you are religious then there are very specific views on abortion and other things, and I get that too.

But for me it's not about sympathy. I have mountains of sympathy for someone who believes he or she was born of the wrong gender, and very little for someone who gets their lips blown up to be big and puffy, but that's not where I draw the line.

Joined: 05/31/06
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Im having a really hard time seeing the connection to exercise, abortion, boob jobs, or anything else, really. This woman has a serious disorder- she needs psych help. Hurting her would be like a dr helping someone with munchausins (sp) by proxy to harm their child.

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"Potter75" wrote:

Im having a really hard time seeing the connection to exercise, abortion, boob jobs, or anything else, really. This woman has a serious disorder- she needs psych help. Hurting her would be like a dr helping someone with munchausins (sp) by proxy to harm their child.

There is a philosophical connection, if you want to talk about someone's rights over their own body, but I agree: she is ILL.

Rivergallery's picture
Joined: 05/23/03
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"Potter75" wrote:

Im having a really hard time seeing the connection to exercise, abortion, boob jobs, or anything else, really. This woman has a serious disorder- she needs psych help. Hurting her would be like a dr helping someone with munchausins (sp) by proxy to harm their child.

My point is.. WHY is it a "serious disorder". Why isn't removing other body parts considered equally a "serious disorder"?
I would contend that we already have dr's harm children because their parents want them to... it is called abortion..

Joined: 03/08/03
Posts: 3179

"Rivergallery" wrote:

My point is.. WHY is it a "serious disorder". Why isn't removing other body parts considered equally a "serious disorder"?
I would contend that we already have dr's harm children because their parents want them to... it is called abortion..

You don't see a difference between reducing the size of your breasts or having a mole removed and losing your limbs? No difference there, to you, that might indicate someone needs psychiatric help?

It isn't considered a serious disorder because it isn't one.

Joined: 05/31/06
Posts: 4780

"Rivergallery" wrote:

My point is.. WHY is it a "serious disorder". Why isn't removing other body parts considered equally a "serious disorder"?
I would contend that we already have dr's harm children because their parents want them to... it is called abortion..

Are you seriously asking why someone who wants to be permanently entirely paralyzed is a serious disorder?

And sorry- but people get tonsillectomies or appendectomies for medical reasons- comparing a tonsillectomy to this is illogical.

And exercising is no more "vain" than washing ones face or brushing ones teeth. Again- no comparison.

Rivergallery's picture
Joined: 05/23/03
Posts: 1301

"freddieflounder101" wrote:

You don't see a difference between reducing the size of your breasts or having a mole removed and losing your limbs? No difference there, to you, that might indicate someone needs psychiatric help?

It isn't considered a serious disorder because it isn't one.

You are still not quite understanding I think.. OUR society put together a list of attributes we label as certifiable.. "disorders" these change all the time, and are basically based on public opinion.
For example, we would think hanging ourselves from hooks in our chest might be indicative of a psychological disorder, but in other cultures it is a sundance, and abnormal not to do to prove your "manhood".

The breast reduction and mole removal in our society are usually done for health reasons.. to be healthier.. we are following western medicine's ideas.

KimPossible's picture
Joined: 05/24/06
Posts: 3303

"Rivergallery" wrote:

For example, we would think hanging ourselves from hooks in our chest might be indicative of a psychological disorder, but in other cultures it is a sundance, and abnormal not to do to prove your "manhood".

I think this is a poor example. In your example the culture actually encourages that behavior, by tying a positive trait to doing so. THAT is the motivator....without that motivator, the desire to torture ones self in that manner should disappear.

So in a society that doesn't have that motivator (like our own society) the desire to torture ones self like that by default has to stem from a psychological disorder.

ETA: in this culture that does it to prove their manhood...if someone went through with the process and actually enjoyed it to some degree, they would still be considered to have a psychological disorder.

GloriaInTX's picture
Joined: 07/29/08
Posts: 4107

"freddieflounder101" wrote:

You don't see a difference between reducing the size of your breasts or having a mole removed and losing your limbs? No difference there, to you, that might indicate someone needs psychiatric help?

It isn't considered a serious disorder because it isn't one.

It can be. What about Michael Jackson?

Body Dysmorphic Disorder, Cosmetic Surgery Addiction, Plastic Surgery Addiction | The Medical Bag

Why didn't surgeons refuse to do surgery on this woman?

Alicia Douvall: Why did nobody stop me becoming the world's most nipped and tucked woman wasting ?1m on 16 boob jobs and an eye-watering 308 cosmetic treatments | Mail Online

Joined: 03/08/03
Posts: 3179

"Rivergallery" wrote:

You are still not quite understanding I think.. OUR society put together a list of attributes we label as certifiable.. "disorders" these change all the time, and are basically based on public opinion.
For example, we would think hanging ourselves from hooks in our chest might be indicative of a psychological disorder, but in other cultures it is a sundance, and abnormal not to do to prove your "manhood".

The breast reduction and mole removal in our society are usually done for health reasons.. to be healthier.. we are following western medicine's ideas.

I am understanding, but disagreeing. They are not based on public opinion, they are based on studies, and research. I have great respect for the field; I can see you do not.

If a friend of mine who grew up here wanted to hang himself from hooks in his chest, then yes, I would send him to a psychiatrist with much haste.

Breast reduction isn't always done for health reasons, mole removal the same. Often it's cosmetic. I have no issue with that.

Also, I agree with what Kim posted.

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