Zimmerman Trial - Page 3
+ Reply to Thread
Page 3 of 22 FirstFirst 123456713 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 215
Like Tree113Likes

Thread: Zimmerman Trial

  1. #21
    Posting Addict
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    7,275

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaInTX View Post
    The jury cannot decide to convict him on lesser charges unless the prosecution includes that option and the judge allows it. The jury is not allowed to make that decision on their own. At this point that option is NOT included, so it is all or nothing. If the prosecutor changes their mind before the end of the trial they can ask the judge to include that option, but it is not on the table at this point.
    So has he been charged with "lesser included charges" or not?

  2. #22
    Posting Addict Spacers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    My avatar is the tai chi -- a symbol of the eternal cycle of life
    Posts
    16,525

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaInTX View Post
    Wow. I guess we can expect riots then if others have that attitude because there is no way they are going to be able to prove 2nd degree murder when Zimmerman is the one that was beaten up. In order to prove it they would have to prove that Zimmerman was the one that attacked first, and they have absolutely no evidence to prove that, even if it was true.
    The prosecution does not have to prove that Zimmerman attacked first to get a 2nd degree conviction, but Zimmerman should have to prove it to support his claim of self-defense.

    Also, there is no evidence that Zimmerman was "beaten" by Martin; there are no marks on Martin's body to indicate that he had instigated or engaged in a fight, or even to indicate that he was trying to protect himself from an attacker. There is evidence that Zimmerman's head hit the ground and that something hit Zimmerman's nose (but not with enough force to break it, which I'm sure Martin could have done if he wanted and/or had the chance) but no evidence that Martin's actions caused those injuries. Both of those things can be explained by Zimmerman pulling Martin from behind to the ground, from the force of the gunshot knocking Zimmerman's hand into his own nose and his own head onto the ground, or from being knocked over by Martin falling to the ground if he was shot while standing.
    The number of U.S. states in which a person can marry the person they love regardless of gender: 30 and counting!

  3. #23
    Posting Addict GloriaInTX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Posts
    7,635

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ethanwinfield View Post
    See, this is what bothers me. If I think someone is following me and I am in danger, why can't I strike first? There was a case in San Diego where a woman was jogging and felt the presence of someone getting closer and elbowed him in the nose. I just can't see how if he fought her that *he* would be the one who could claim self-defense. Why do I have to wait until I'm attacked to use force in a place where I have a legal right to be?
    Well in your mind what would be reasonable for her to do to try and get away? If she had jumped on top of him and started banging the back of his head into the sidewalk instead of just elbowing him in the nose does that seem reasonable to you for someone that is trying to get away? If you were scared because you thought someone was following you would you hang around instead of going home as soon as possible? It just doesn't add up.
    Mom to Lee, Jake, Brandon, Rocco
    Stepmom to Ryan, Regan, Braden, Baley
    Granddaughters Kylie 10/18/2010 & Aleya 4/22/2013


    I never consider a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosopy, as a cause for withdrawing from a friend. --Thomas Jefferson

  4. #24
    Posting Addict GloriaInTX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Posts
    7,635

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ethanwinfield View Post
    So has he been charged with "lesser included charges" or not?
    No, not at this point. If the trial went to the jury at this point they would only be able to convict on 2nd degree murder.
    Mom to Lee, Jake, Brandon, Rocco
    Stepmom to Ryan, Regan, Braden, Baley
    Granddaughters Kylie 10/18/2010 & Aleya 4/22/2013


    I never consider a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosopy, as a cause for withdrawing from a friend. --Thomas Jefferson

  5. #25
    Posting Addict GloriaInTX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Posts
    7,635

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Spacers View Post
    The prosecution does not have to prove that Zimmerman attacked first to get a 2nd degree conviction, but Zimmerman should have to prove it to support his claim of self-defense.

    Also, there is no evidence that Zimmerman was "beaten" by Martin; there are no marks on Martin's body to indicate that he had instigated or engaged in a fight, or even to indicate that he was trying to protect himself from an attacker. There is evidence that Zimmerman's head hit the ground and that something hit Zimmerman's nose (but not with enough force to break it, which I'm sure Martin could have done if he wanted and/or had the chance) but no evidence that Martin's actions caused those injuries. Both of those things can be explained by Zimmerman pulling Martin from behind to the ground, from the force of the gunshot knocking Zimmerman's hand into his own nose and his own head onto the ground, or from being knocked over by Martin falling to the ground if he was shot while standing.
    It is up to the state to prove. Not Zimmerman to disprove. Innocent until PROVEN guilty. Could possibly be explained won't get a conviction.
    Mom to Lee, Jake, Brandon, Rocco
    Stepmom to Ryan, Regan, Braden, Baley
    Granddaughters Kylie 10/18/2010 & Aleya 4/22/2013


    I never consider a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosopy, as a cause for withdrawing from a friend. --Thomas Jefferson

  6. #26
    Posting Addict
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    7,275

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaInTX View Post
    Well in your mind what would be reasonable for her to do to try and get away? If she had jumped on top of him and started banging the back of his head into the sidewalk instead of just elbowing him in the nose does that seem reasonable to you for someone that is trying to get away? If you were scared because you thought someone was following you would you hang around instead of going home as soon as possible? It just doesn't add up.
    In the sample I used, you betcha. This man killed one girl before the jogger elbowed him and one after.
    And no, home is probably the last place I would run to because now my potential attacker also knows where I live.

    If someone broke into your house, do you have to run away if you can? Or can you bash his head into the concrete? Never mind. Things are different in TX Acquitted Texas man who shot prostitute after she refused sex was just 'protecting himself from theft': court - NYPOST.com

  7. #27
    Posting Addict GloriaInTX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Posts
    7,635

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ethanwinfield View Post
    In the sample I used, you betcha. This man killed one girl before the jogger elbowed him and one after.
    And no, home is probably the last place I would run to because now my potential attacker also knows where I live.

    If someone broke into your house, do you have to run away if you can? Or can you bash his head into the concrete? Never mind. Things are different in TX Acquitted Texas man who shot prostitute after she refused sex was just 'protecting himself from theft': court - NYPOST.com
    I haven't seen the evidence in that case and there isn't much about it online, but you could at least have included an article that had the whole story. He shot at the car as they drove away and didn't shoot her on purpose.

    Courthouse News Service
    Mom to Lee, Jake, Brandon, Rocco
    Stepmom to Ryan, Regan, Braden, Baley
    Granddaughters Kylie 10/18/2010 & Aleya 4/22/2013


    I never consider a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosopy, as a cause for withdrawing from a friend. --Thomas Jefferson

  8. #28
    Posting Addict
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    7,275

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaInTX View Post
    No, not at this point. If the trial went to the jury at this point they would only be able to convict on 2nd degree murder.

    1. Yes, he has
    The Huffington Post: "George Zimmerman is now charged with second-degree murder. ... Embedded in the second-degree charge are what are called 'lesser included offenses,' including ... involuntary manslaughter. ...
    SECTION CHARGED OFFENSES


    782.04(2) Second degree (depraved mind) murder

    CATEGORY 1
    Manslaughter ? 782.07

    CATEGORY 2Third degree (felony) murder ? 782.04(4)
    Vehicular homicide ? 782.071
    (Nonhomicide lessers)
    Attempt
    Culpable negligence ? 784.05(2)
    Aggravated battery ? 784.045
    Aggravated assault ? 784.021
    Battery ? 784.03
    Assault ? 784.011
    2. If it wasn't included in 2nd degree murder charges, neither the prosecution nor defense could request the judge go over the instructions. Because there wouldn't be any.

    I don't know how else to explain it...if he's guilty of 2nd degree murder, he also guilty of manslaughter, etc. If it wasn't included in the original charges, it would now be a separate crime subject to new charges.

    If the prosecution pushes it, it would look like he felt he hadn't proved the 2nd degree murder charge but perhaps a lesser charge.

    If the defense pushes it, it would look like he felt that the prosecution had a strong case and maybe his client could be found guilty of a lesser charge.

  9. #29
    Posting Addict
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    7,275

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaInTX View Post
    I haven't seen the evidence in that case and there isn't much about it online, but you could at least have included an article that had the whole story. He shot at the car as they drove away and didn't shoot her on purpose.

    Courthouse News Service
    Oh well in that case...nope, still don't see it as justified to shoot at a car because he thought the escort was going to partake in an illegal activity with him and she didn't. Unless prostitution isn't a crime in TX.

  10. #30
    Posting Addict Spacers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    My avatar is the tai chi -- a symbol of the eternal cycle of life
    Posts
    16,525

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaInTX View Post
    It is up to the state to prove. Not Zimmerman to disprove. Innocent until PROVEN guilty. Could possibly be explained won't get a conviction.
    I'll admit that I'm not familiar with Florida law and pretty much only know about it from this case, but I have not seen anything that says the state has to prove that Martin attacked Zimmerman first. So I Googled it and here's what I found, with no mention that the state has to prove that the victim attacked first:
    Understanding a second degree murder can be more confusing than the more serious first degree murder. The "criminal act" reference in the statute must be a single event or series of related actions arising from and performed pursuant to a single design or purpose of committing the murder or creating the dangerous condition that led to the death. Although second-degree murder can carry a potential incarceration of up to life in prison, the death penalty cannot be imposed on a person found guilty of second-degree murder.
    Whether a Defendant's actions could have been reasonably foreseen as endangering a human life to the point of warranting a prosecution is a question for the jury and where a skilled defense lawyer can be most helpful. Examples may include the negligent supervision of a child or of the elderly by an adult, or other reckless behavior that led to the death of another person.

    Unlike in a first degree or felony murder prosecution, a grand jury does not need to indict the defendant before a prosecution may begin. Second degree murders often are decided on the "common sense" of the jury. Whether a person's actions amount to the requisite intent or recklessness to warrant conviction is often left up to the jury's determination.

    The defense of a second degree murder often comes from a defense's argument that the death was justified, excusable, or was self-defense.
    Second Degree Murder - Law Firm Arnold & Sichta, LLC Attorneys Jacksonville, Florida
    The number of U.S. states in which a person can marry the person they love regardless of gender: 30 and counting!

+ Reply to Thread
Page 3 of 22 FirstFirst 123456713 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
v -->

About Us | Contact Us | Privacy Policy | Sitemap | Terms & Conditions