Two subjects in the news to discuss

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Joined: 02/20/11
Posts: 865
Two subjects in the news to discuss

There are two news stories going on right now that I find very interesting and I want your opinions on them. Only rules are to be nice!!

1. San Francisco is tabling a bill making male circumcism illegal before the age of 18.

2. A Toronto couple has decided to tell no one (including family other than their two sons) the gender of their baby. Its name is Storm and he or she is already five months old.

What do you all think??

lil96's picture
Joined: 03/27/06
Posts: 573

Neither one of them affect me, so I am not too worried.
But I think both have been brought up in the GDB lately.

2.To sum up what I wrote about Storm, I don't think the idea is in the right place. I understand they want gender equality, but I think the way they go about it is not the right choice.

1.The circ stuff seems a bit extreme too (I didn't say anything on GDB). I think more more people are doing it less and less. If someone really wants it done, they will go to the next town over to get it done.

Joined: 05/17/06
Posts: 370

1. Personally I am against circumcision (unless medically necessary) and I think probably the majority of people in our area feel this way, so it makes sense here.

2. I think that is a bit odd. I read the article and their older son (also raised completely gender-neutral) was starting to get annoyed at people thinking he was a girl. Kids want to fit in in society and they will not fit in unless they identify with a gender.

sandraleigh's picture
Joined: 11/23/06
Posts: 2672

I heard about both of these.

I don't agree with making it illegal not to allow circumcision. Regardless of my own personal choices, how can they forbid something that is an innate part of some religions?

I think those parents are pretty nuts. Sure, I see what they are trying to accomplish, but I feel sorry for the kid.

annestacy's picture
Joined: 05/31/09
Posts: 473

I agree with PP about the circumcision thing, its a personal choice, granted one that parents make for an infant without his consent (although technically, he cannot consent till he's 18). I am on the fence about circumcision in general, and don't really know if its a necessary thing. KWIM?

As for little Storm, I think these parents are conducting an awful social experiment on their child. No matter what gender a person identifies with, it is part of who they are. We do not live in a gender-ambiguous world, and it is normal for little boys and little girls to learn gender roles. I just hope that both children of this couple don't end up with lasting effects of their parents over-idealization of how they think the world should work.
FWIW-I don't care if my son plays with dolls, wears pink, or plays with my (or his nana's purse). He kisses dolls, because he is a gentle sweet boy. I have a few pink shirts for him because it looks fantastic on him with his coloring! And he loves to carry purses around because he's with ME all day and I always have a purse or a diaper bag. He even has a black and white plastic ring thing that he pulls up to his shoulder and we call it his purse. He carries it all around, and its actually kind of funny!

Nikerz20's picture
Joined: 04/18/09
Posts: 673

I have heard of neither of these issues down our end of the world.

1. Circumcision - I agree that it's a personal choice of the parents, and in some religions it is part of the boys growing up. To make it illegal it's denying a person's right kwim.

2. Storm - What an awful thing these parents are doing! Nothing is right about concealing the gender of the child, unless it were unborn. Are they trying to get their 15 mins of fame?

sweetsriracha's picture
Joined: 03/29/11
Posts: 1318

1. San Francisco is tabling a bill making male circumcision illegal before the age of 18.

This is something I'm really, really, really struggling with... even 6 months ago I was SUPER anti-circumcision because it simply isn't medically necessary. Now, here we are expecting a boy and SO really wants to circumcise because of his Jewish heritage. I'm not Jewish, but I also don't feel that my heritage is more important then his. Who knows what we'll do. A few years ago here in Oregon there was a news item about an awful woman who attempted a home circumcision and it went wrong. I guess I really think that the option should continue to exist for religious and cultural reasons so it can be safely performed by a professional.

2. A Toronto couple has decided to tell no one (including family other than their two sons) the gender of their baby. Its name is Storm and he or she is already five months old.

I'm kind of super-liberal on this point. I really feel that Storm isn't being subjected to the same degree of horrific abuse and neglect that so many children suffer at the hands of truly irresponsible parents. I also think that a 5 month old doesn't really need gendered items like onesies with little truck logos to thrive and grow and develop. I think by the time Storm enters school they will be choosing to identify with a gender...whether or not this gender is more likely to be different than their biological sex than the average child, who knows. I'm really not morally opposed to any child, regardless of upbringing, choosing to identify as a different gender than that of their anatomy and thats just my opinion. And for the record, our little boy will definitely be defined as a boy by us -- I'm STOCKPILING baby clothes with robots/trucks/rocketships.

melody811's picture
Joined: 02/18/10
Posts: 155

Gender Topic:

The way I see it, boys are girls ARE different and hiding the gender really doesn't do anything, especially that young. The simple fact is, people are not perfect, life isnt fair, men and women are both capable of equally accomplishing wonderful things if they chose to do it and what's more important than the gender of people is their character.

Circumsize:

I regret not having it done with my son, but originally I was against it. Turns out he does need it medically and its a lot tougher now Sad My old best friend had it done at the age of 14 and it was horrible for him being older. He hated that it wasnt already done and it was a personal choice.

Jenni Beth's picture
Joined: 03/03/11
Posts: 1407

1. On Circ- I don't think it should be illegal. What would be the rationale behind it being illegal? I've said before on another board and I'll say again here...I've assisted with 100's of circ's and while the infant does cry, it really isn't as traumatic as everyone thinks it is. Other wise I wouldn't allow it to be done to my own son.

2. Those parents are nuts. Just nuts. That is all I can say about that.

kmm123's picture
Joined: 12/13/08
Posts: 1839

Circ has been a difficult decision in this house. We did circ Evan but it took a lot of discussion. I really think despite it being more difficult it's still best done only if medically necessary like removing tonsils or a appendix or anything else. DH did not agree with me on that. If we are having another boy we will revisit the topic again b/c my feelings have not changed and I will expect him to re-look at the info. Whether it should be illegal....hm....I guess I think it should more be considered elective and cosmetic and come out of the parent's pocket at full cost to them, not insurance covered etc. Most cosmetic surgeries are not illegal for children so I don't see why this should be but I'm not sure insurance should have to pay either. That being said a marriage is a partnership and after a good deal of research and honest consideration DH was still very for it. I think if we lived in a more more diverse area where the circ rates were lower I might have convinced him. I think we will go around and around again if this baby is a boy b/c I still don't favor elective procedures, yes it would be harder later in life, but so are a lot of things doesn't change the fact in my mind you still wait to be sure they are medically necessary (at which time I think insurance etc should cover it). But obv since we did circ Evan I'm not super banging my drum anti circ. like most things in parenting I think it's an individual decision.

As for the gender thing. Eh a little odd but I really don't think the kids will wind up sociopaths from it. Maybe a little frustrated, maybe annoyed, but in the end you're going to know what you are and you're going to feel what you are (and I'm liberal as well and supportive of those who are transgender) and your parents can't hide that forever. If they want to try to raise a child with as little early preconceived notions as possible and this is their way who am I to judge? I don't think it's abusive or bad parenting in any sort of extreme perhaps not the norm but I don't think the child is suffering

brady_bunch_plus_one's picture
Joined: 11/27/04
Posts: 399

I think the making making getting a circ. illegal is a HUGE mistake. For a few reasons.First would have to be the religious point,many use it because of religion.I also think that as a parent I should be given the choice about medical decsions for my child. I know several people who have had to have a circumsion as teens/young adults and they have all said how horrible it is and how they wish they would have had it done as infants.I am well informed on it not being nessacary but I also feel as a mother that is my choice for my child. ( and for the record both my older boys were as will Landon be.)

As for the crazy parents,I think what they are trying to do is a nice idea,however may damage their child.I am all for letting children be free of gender bias i.e. wearing pink,playing with dolls or trucks whatever. I think it is important however to remember that being a boy or girl is who you are.Not giving this child an identity will harm his/her mental welfare at some point.

jeepbaby's picture
Joined: 11/08/07
Posts: 492

1. Making the circ illegal is insane! It goes againt the whole freedom thing. What's next, Parents can't get elective cosmetic surgery for a child with a deformity? Once that ball gets rolling, it's hard to stop....

2. I think it is sad to use your child as a social experiment. (And I am sure they are getting paid to be on all those talk shows!) OTOH, maybe the child is a hermaphrodite, and they want the child to pick?

Starryblue702's picture
Joined: 04/06/11
Posts: 5454

With regards to the circumcision one, I think it's ridiculous! How dare the state try and take away someones religious right (I'm speaking for the Jewish community who have regarded this a highly religious tradition for thousands of years). Isn't this what the true separation of chuch and state was created for (for those of us in the U.S.)? Talk about an invasion of privacy. Shame on them. I'm not even Jewish but you better believe all of my boys (including the one in utero) are and will be circumcized! I've known grown men who have gotten serious infections from being uncircumcized and had to undergo the procedure later in life, and the amount of pain they have to go through because of it is crazy!

Now about the couple who won't reveal their child's gender (this was posted about on another board, I can't remember which though, but I've posted about it there!) I think it's crazy. One's gender makes up a huge part of who they are. Let me tell you that my sons would NEVER put on a dress, not because of what "society or myself have ingrained into them" but because they just don't want to... and even if they did I wouldn't let them because I'm raising my boys to be boys, not girls. Sexual orientation is another story, and a gay man is still a man and a gay woman is still a woman. If adults want to change their gender or do anything of that nature, that's their right as adults... but I don't think a parent should be forcing strangeness on a child, and strange is not letting your child know what they are. I honestly think that these parents are hurting these kids more than anything... I think CPS ought to step in and investigate... just IMHO.