Lets talk about OCD, shall we?

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Chimmy's picture
Joined: 08/03/01
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Lets talk about OCD, shall we?

I know that those who have OCD aren't just postpartum moms, but I have found that many moms have a flare up of OCD, sometimes severe, sometimes not & I thought for those who are comfortable talking about it, it would be a good topic to bring up. I've no doubt that there are many lurkers out there who could benefit from such a conversation.

I know I've briefly spoken about it in the past, and mentioned that I'm OCD in posts but I don't think I've ever spoken about it in depth, as up until now it's been something that I've found quite embarrassing & shameful, but in reading this book I feel like I need to set those emotions aside & talk about this, my hope is that if I can help just one person by this post it will be worth making myself feel vulnerable.

I've spoken with several moms via PM's who are suffering from it so I know it's not just me, & the selfish side of me finds comfort in this, but the compassionate side of me aches for all of the other moms who are dealing with postpartum OCD. Up until 5 or so months ago I had no idea that I was even OCD, and I know that the first week postpartum when my symptoms came rolling in like a ton of bricks, I had no idea what was wrong with me, all I knew was that my anxiety was through the roof and my mind was being flooded with horrible thoughts - it was by far one of the scariest times of my life, and the most upsetting. I found it horrible that I couldn't look at my baby w/out feeling fear, I couldn't hold him, or touch him without my mind being insulted with intrusive thoughts & I had no idea how to get rid of them, because I had no idea WHY I was even having them in the first place. I can say though, that now at 9 months postpartum I am doing so much better, I have my moments still but having the knowledge of what is going on with me has helped calm the waves.

I'm currently reading a book by Bruce M. Hyman, Ph.D. & Cherry Pedrick, RN called The OCD Workbook 2nd edition. I've found it to be extremely fascinating & it's given me insight into the type of OCD that I'm currently dealing with, which is called "Pure-O" or Pure Obsession OCD which consists of intrusive thoughts & anxiety (sometimes extreme). I also teeter on the edge of being a "orderer" where I have to have things in perfect order, or it causes anxiety. What I found interesting was that as I was reading the book, it triggered memories from when I was a child & teen and in doing so I realized that I've been OCD since a young age, I'm not sure at which age it was triggered I've certain ideas as to when, but no real solid memory. The other interesting thing that I learned was that if you do have it as a child, it can go in remission and then triggered (relapse) in adulthood, in my case it was this last pregnancy & birth. I found it interesting how it said that eating disorders like bulemia and anorexia is linked to OCD, I was bulemic for much of my teenage years. It also spoke about your OCD changing "faces" in that you can go from being a "Pure-O" to a "checker" or "washer" - that it's not always a consistent "type" of OCD & often times you have a mixture of several, usually having a dominant "kind" and several very mild kinds, although this isn't always the case.

I've found a lot of hope in reading this book, the idea that I can live in peace with these thoughts is comforting, and that when I do have a little flare up I'll have to tools to deal with it. The other part of me is upset & scared at the fact that I will always have OCD, it's something I will always struggle with, but I also know that I'm strong enough to do it & that through fear, through the trials it will bring me, I have the choice to become stronger or weak. To play victim or conqueror, I hope I have the courage to always choose the road of strength.

I also sat down tonight & spoken with my dh about this, sharing with him what I've learned in the book. I've decided that I'm going to seek a therapist who is experienced with OCD and who is trained to do Cognitive-Behavior Therapy, the entire idea (really) scares me because I know I'll have to face some pretty ugly thoughts & fears, but my hope is that I can learn some invaluable tools that will teach me how to deal with my OCD better, especially when I have lapses. My other fear is that I will be unable to find a doctor who will not push medications on me, I know that they have and do help many many people, part of me is jealous about that b/c I would love to help that it brings some people - but with my last experience with Zoloft it was just FAR too scary to visit again, it would have to take some mighty (and I mean mighty) convicing to get me to go that route again & chances are I wont until I'm 100% finished having bio kids.

Anyhow. This has become quite lengthy! If you've made it this far I hand you lots and lots of kuddos lol I would also like to share some online resources that were given in the book, hopefully they'll help someone.

There are also a ton of OCD books listed, if anyone is interested I can list those too.

Anxiety Disorders Association of America
www.adaa.org

Association for Behavior and Cognitive Therapist
www.aabt.org

Awareness Foundation for OCD and Related Disorders
www.ocdawareness.com

Cherry's site (one of the authors of the book I spoke about)
www.CherryPedrick.com

Consumer Web site for Handling your mental illness at work and school, Denter for Dhychiatric rRhabilitation
www.bu.edu/sarpsych/jobschool

Doubt & other Disorders
www.healthyplace.com/communities/ocd/doubt

Internet Mental Health

www.mentalhealth.com

Mental Health InfoSource
www.mhsource.com

National Anxiety Foundation
www.lexington-on-line.com/naf.html

Obsessive Compulsive Anonymous
http://www.members.aol.com/west24th

Obsessive-Compulsive FOundation
www.ocfoundation.org

Obsessive Compulsive INformation Center
www.miminc.org/aboutocic.html

OCD Action UK
www.ocdaction.org.uk

OCD Online
www.ocdonline.com

OCD Resource Center of FLordia - This is the website for Dr. Hyman's treatment center in Flordia.
www.ocdhope.com

Psych Central - Dr. John Grohols Mental Health Page
www.psychcentral.com

Scrupulous Anonymous
htp://www.mission.liguori.org/newsletters/scupanon.htm

OCD BOOK on Pure-O
And I wanted to share. When I first got pg, actually in the early mornings of the day I got my bfp (ad 7dpo no less! LOL) I had a horrible OCD episode with the anxiety/panic attack feelings to boot. Scared the life out of me and I thought oh nooo, if it's starting up this early into the pregnancy I am DOOMED. So I started getting proactive again with how well I took care of myself, and decided to start reading up again on OCD.

Well in doing so I decided to go through the links again, in the sticky post at the top of this page, as I did I came across a book called The Imp of the Mind, it's on the type of OCD I have which is called Pure-O or basically it's bad thoughts that run amock & cause huge amounts of anxiety or panic attacks, yea, not fun.

So I picked up this book, as well as another called Brain lock. I read Imp of the Mind in less than 3 days & was SO comforted by it! It gave me hope that when I do have my OCD episodes that I'll be okay, and ways to treat it without medications b/c med's don't seem to help much with this type of OCD, or if they do the amounts have to be rather large and it still doesn't keep the thoughts out, just takes the edge off.

Anyhow I thought it was an excellent book, it gets a lot of good stars on Amazon.com. I wish I had known about it when I was in my early ppd days with Seamus, so I thought I'd recommend it here incase anyone else is plagued with this annoying disease. Another thing I found interesting is they said this type of OCD is the most common, and I believe even more common than diseases like diabetes :shock: I didn't finish Brain Lock, I got through the first 30 or so pages & realised it wasn't going to help me as it had more to do with the other types of OCD, like washing, checking and so on but it too gets good reviews so for those who deal with that type of OCD it might be worth picking up.

Coffeegirljones's picture
Joined: 01/18/06
Posts: 238

Thanks for sharing all of that :bighug:

Joined: 06/01/06
Posts: 28

Chimmy~I can really appreciate that you had the guts to post your OCD feelings. Being OCD myself it is humiliating for me to discuss. I have not read the book that you are talking about but I would be very interested in finding it. My OCD manifests itself in several ways; the most embarrassing for me is the counting. I hate that I can't function in normal life without counting. My DH is very supportive and he can always tell when I am having a bad day because he will notice that I am counting in my mind. I also have irrational fears that are very much because of my OCD. It is an awful disorder but I hope that anyone that is dealing with it can find comfort that they are not alone.

Chimmy's picture
Joined: 08/03/01
Posts: 2776

It really is/can be humiliating, I count too and like you when I get stressed or over worked it's like my brain put's up a "on vacation" sign & I start counting things in my mind. What I find the most humiliating is the pure-o obsessions, I really struggle with them.

My dh is really supportive too, I think it helps espeically when my anxiety is heightened.

Joined: 03/16/15
Posts: 53852

I am not true OCD but I have generalised anxiety disorder and have suffered from mania in the past. It is really tough, in fact these post partnum feeling remind a lot of my mania. The way I just get obbsessive like my mania made me. Also I am a magical thinker, this means I feel like if I think something, then it is true. Like if I think something terrible will happen it will happen. I have found cognitive behaviour therapy very helpful, no it is not easy but it has helped me. I undrestand those feelings of anger that this is something you will always have to deal with. I had trouble with that when my therapist told me that I would always have tp deal with my anxiety. I think this why I am having a hard time coming to terms with these post partnum issues, I just did not want to go back to the bad places in my mind, I wanted to be done with that. A book that really helped me is linked to at the bottom. It also deals with OCD.

http://www.amazon.com/Sky-Falling-Understanding-Obsessive-Compulsive-Disorders/dp/0393316033/sr=8-4/qid=1166209826/ref=pd_bbs_sr_4/103-5677057-4105423?ie=UTF8&s=books

Joined: 03/16/15
Posts: 53852

I'm going to make this a "Sticky" Chimmy.

Thanks for starting this thread. I admire all that you've accomplished so far. I am inspired by your determination to cope w/ OCD naturally. Thank you for sharing your journey w/ us. You never cease to amaze me! (And, I'm sure you're helping so many other women out there that we don't even *see*!)

Joined: 07/16/06
Posts: 5

"drakew" wrote:

I am not true OCD but I have generalised anxiety disorder and have suffered from mania in the past. It is really tough, in fact these post partnum feeling remind a lot of my mania. The way I just get obbsessive like my mania made me. Also I am a magical thinker, this means I feel like if I think something, then it is true. Like if I think something terrible will happen it will happen. I have found cognitive behaviour therapy very helpful, no it is not easy but it has helped me. I undrestand those feelings of anger that this is something you will always have to deal with. I had trouble with that when my therapist told me that I would always have tp deal with my anxiety. I think this why I am having a hard time coming to terms with these post partnum issues, I just did not want to go back to the bad places in my mind, I wanted to be done with that. A book that really helped me is linked to at the bottom. It also deals with OCD.

http://www.amazon.com/Sky-Falling-Understanding-Obsessive-Compulsive-Disorders/dp/0393316033/sr=8-4/qid=1166209826/ref=pd_bbs_sr_4/103-5677057-4105423?ie=UTF8&s=books

Wow! You sound a lot like me. I have GAD also.

Chimmy's picture
Joined: 08/03/01
Posts: 2776

Oh wow, I was suprised to see this as a sticky! lol Your so sweet Margaret - you've become such a good friend, I really appreciate all of the support and encouragement you've given me over these last 9 months, not sure what I would of done without this board!

Drake ~ it's good to ear that the CBT worked for you, that's encouraging to hear Smile Right now, everytime I think about it I get really anxious - which obviously means I need it but oye! This is hard.

Joined: 03/16/15
Posts: 53852

wow thanks Chimmy, what great resources :bighug:

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 6

Thanks for posting this, Chimmy. I am really impressed with this list of resources! This is so helpful for me and I am sure many others! Biggrin

Joined: 03/16/15
Posts: 53852

NM

Joined: 03/16/15
Posts: 53852

Thank you for poting this. I am OCD as well and the kicker?? It's fuelled by the phobia of vomit. In any shape or form for myself or others. Frustrating...

Chimmy's picture
Joined: 08/03/01
Posts: 2776

That's the odd thing about OCD, it's almost always irrational and if you were to explain it to someone who has never had OCD, they would think your nuts for being afraid of whatever it is that triggers your OCD and thus anxiety.

I totally undestsand (((hugs)))

Joined: 02/08/07
Posts: 2

I had it during the first few months postpartum. I would have thoughts of someone cutting off my baby's fingers, or I would have a thought of a scary man's face looking into the nursery monitor staring at me to let me know that he was about to hurt my son. I would be nursing him and it would enter my mind that someone could break in and come get us, and what would I do if they killed me or took me away and my son was left at the house alone. I had no idea what these were about and felt scared to talk about them until I read the book "this isn't what I expected" and learned about PP OCD. I still struggle with PPD, but the OCD went away and is now more like normal mom worry stuff. Thanks for sharing your story and all the resources!

Kim

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Joined: 08/03/01
Posts: 2776

:bighug: I'm so glad it's gone away from you Kim!

I'm glad so many have found this post helpful, I still want to delete it sometimes lol

Joined: 03/16/15
Posts: 53852

Hi i am not sure if you would see this as the same thing but after having my son 4 years ago i started pulling hairs from my scalp, they call it trichotillomania, and they do say its a form of ocd, i never had it before my son was born but still have it today it was at its worst about 6 weeks or so after my son was born that i had a bald patch on top of my head starting to appear, and my mum noticed it and that shcked me so i tried really hard to stop, i do pull now and again but not as bad as it was, and my bald spot has gone. I have had a daughter since last yaer in July but have not found my urge so bad this time around, but she is an easier baby.

Joined: 11/06/06
Posts: 1
Hi all

Hi, I haven't posted on here in a while! But I thought I'd revisit the board. The first few weeks after I had my little girl I was feeling pretty crappy. It lifted and I've been feeling good.

Chimmy, I'm one of the people you spoke with through pm about ocd. I have it too, and I have EXACTLY the same kind you do. Intrusive, horrible thoughts. OCD is often triggered by stressful and big events such as weddings/ divorce/ pregnancy/ birth/ new job/ quitting a job... etc. Pure O is one of the most common forms of OCD and so many people have it but are ashamed of discussing it because the thoughts cause so much anxiety and shame. Chimmy, I'm grateful for what you posted b/c your post defnitely helped someone out there! And you are not selfish for being thankful that there are others like you. It is comforting to know that you are not alone and that others can relate. It makes you feel less "crazy". :c)

Another sight I visit is healthboards.com I often read and post on the ocd board there. It is a great network of support for anyone who has ocd. Like here, the people on that board are supportive and kind and caring. God bless you all!
Melissa

Joined: 06/01/06
Posts: 28

Thank you so much for your thoughts, Melissa. I, too, really appreciate all of Chimmy's wonderful insite. OCD has a stigma and the more we talk about it the greater our chances of helping one another. I would not wish OCD on anyone but I am very glad to know that I am not the only one. Thanks again ladies for all your helpful posts.

Joined: 07/07/07
Posts: 2
OCD

I feel like I could have written Chimmy's post. I am so miserable right now and just don't know what to do. I feel so ashamed by the unwanted, negative thoughts I have that I feel distant from everyone in my life. I am so in love with my baby and husband and just want to be able to enjoy them and my life. HELP!

Chimmy's picture
Joined: 08/03/01
Posts: 2776

Clair ~ I'm so sorry your going through this Sad I hope you come back to the board, it's been a few days since you've put this post up.

There IS HOPE I can promise you that, having been through that pit & having made it out, I can say it'll be okay - but I know how scarry & dark it is when your there experiencing it.

Have you spoken to your doctor about it? I found it was also just as important to talk to my husband, i twas *so difficult* to do though b/c I was SO ashamed of my thoughts but it helped, a lot!

(((((Hugs)))))) Were here for you!

Joined: 07/07/07
Posts: 2

Chimmy,

You're so sweet to write back. Thank you...I am reading Imp of the Mind and so far, it (along with your message) has been very helpful. I, think, I am even feeling better. It's so important for us- people- to support each other! I have talked to my husband and he knows I am suffering, somewhat, but cannot bring myself to even voice the obsessive thoughts to him (let alone myself). Please keep in touch and thank you again....

ClairGold

Chimmy's picture
Joined: 08/03/01
Posts: 2776

HI Claire!

ugh! Once again I am really late in responding, I am so sorry! Once again I hope you see this, I'm thinking of you!

How wonderful that the book is helping you, it really is a good book. I found a lot of comfort in it, even though it did trigger my OCD sometimes.

It is *so* hard to be open about your thoughts, it took me until I was ohh I'd say 9-12months pp to even speak about them outloud & even then I wasn't completley open, I"d hint to what I was thinking, or I'd lightly brush upon them but as I did this I slowly worked my way to being able to *really* talk about it, now I can sometimes, I've told my current midwife, my husband and a few close family/friends. I still have weird ones creep up, but now that I know what they are, and thanks to books like Imp of the Mind they are *much* easier to handle.

Please keep checking in!! I'll keep an eye on this thread & mark it, so that I get notified when someone posts, that way I don't take so long to respond :oops:

I'm also just a PM away if you ever need anything.

Chimmy's picture
Joined: 08/03/01
Posts: 2776

I wanted to give a bit of an update to this thread. I have recently started a program called Attacking Anxiety & Depression by Lucinda Bassett. I'm a week into the program and it's a 15wk program, so far it has been very eye opening & for the first time, I feel like I will be able to REALLY overcome the struggle with my pure-o OCD as well as anxiety. I'll also be seeing a very experienced shrink (30+yrs experience, and a professor at our local University). He has recently discovered some therapy techniques that have proven successful with this particular form of OCD. If anyone is interested I'll share my experience as I go through it Smile Good luck to those struggling with this, this IS something you can overcome, it IS a temporary condition & does not have to be apart of your life for the rest of your life. Keep the hope & stay strong mama's!

Joined: 03/16/15
Posts: 53852

Definitely interested! Thanks for your info and PLEASE keep us posted on your research and progress! Smile

ETA: CHIMMY!! I didn't realize that was you at first. How are you doing? How are the kids?

Joined: 06/04/11
Posts: 2
hi...new to the group!

Hi,

I was doing a search through the internet to see if any other mommy's deal with OCD. I have felt all alone for many years...trying to deal with this illness (mostly) on my own. You would never believe it, but I am a counselor and I feel like I should have things under control!! My OCD really acts up when I am pregnant. I am currently almost 11 weeks pg and the OCD is rearing its ugly head back into my life. I really appreciate the posts and honesty that I have read from all of you because I am terrified to talk about it. We lost our precious little boy in 2005 when he rejected a bowel transplant at 13 months. Since that horrible experience and having a miscarriage several years ago, the OCD likes to make me feel that I am constantly going to "accidentally" do something that might harm my baby in some shape or form. I don't know if any of you have issues with what you eat, drink, thinking that there is something in the food/drink that is harmful for the baby... Or, checking toilet paper every time you go to the bathroom to make sure you aren't bleeding, or fearing that at the next dr. appt, there will be something really wrong.... These are some of the fears that overtake my mind on a daily basis. I have done some counseling in the past during pregnancy and have taken an anti-depressant to help. I also have a very supportive husband who reassures me that my irrational thoughts are irrational and that everything will be o.k. I have NO idea how he has such Faith in me, but he does for some reason or another. I am sure he must think that I have really lost it...but he does try to help. I am not sure if this is a specific type of OCD or what! But, I really would love to have some support from others and even be a supportive friend, too! I appreciate you all reading this and hope you have a great rest of the weekend.

Anne

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Joined: 08/03/01
Posts: 2776

Hello Anne!

I am so glad you have found us, but also so very sorry that you are struggling with this. I am also sorry to hear about the loss of your son and the miscarriage, I can't imagine how difficult that must have been for you. With all of the hormonal changes going on during pregnancy & postpartum it seems to be a really common time for us moms to struggle. This is something I can relate to as well.

The very fact that you are worried something might happen is a good indication that it more than likely wont happen! I know that that sounds silly but it's true.

In everything that I have read & studied, and come to realize about myself as I've tried to learn about OCD (and it's many sisters) is that it's all about control or lack there of - chances are you know this being a counselor - and going through what your went through with your son & your m/c is one of those things that you had no control over so being prone to OCD it makes a lot of sense that it would flare up, especially now that you are newly pregnant again. Be gentle with yourself! You've been through a lot. I think the biggest thing I want to share with you is that your going to be okay! This isn't something you have to live with for the rest of your life, you truly do have the ability to overcome this (sound cheesy & silly I know, but it's true). There was a point in my life when I could not imagine a day without anxiety, or being able to go even a single hour with the horrible thoughts popping up - but I can say now it really can & does happen.

In talking with many others who have struggled with this I have found that different things work for different people. For me it was a combination of all sorts of things - learning how I think, how I talk to myself & what the chatter is in the back of my head (the one I don't typically pay attention to) has been my biggest struggle & really is the root cause of OCD. Something I found REALLY interesting as I began learning about OCD & CBT (which is truly what healed me) And you may already know this - is you can not have an emotion without first having a thought. When I was first told this I thought it was stupid & couldn't possibly be true. Then I put it to the test & was shocked to find how true it is! Once you have that thought no matter how simple or unconcious that thought is a chemical reaction occurs in the body & then begins the OCD cycle.

I'm so glad your husband has such faith in you, and has been so supportive. I don't know what I would of done without mine, he was truly my rock as I went through the OCD/panic attack/insomnia cycles. With the counseling that you have done, was it CBT or just "talking about" the problem? Typical counseling actually made things worse for me & the anti-depressants didn't work either. Something else that I found interesting is that the FDA will not approve an anti-depressant unless it works as good as CBT - when I realized this I began digging around & learning about CBT & in doing so eventually found Lucinda Bassetts program, journaling (heavily) I always say journaling educates the conscience, what I ate & how I took care of myself is what eventually pulled me out of it.

I am very passionate about this subject & my heart goes out to those who struggle with this. I feel like I've bounced around a bit but hope that I was able to help a little & also hope that you come back to say hello to us Smile In reading back my last post here was three years ago!!! lol Three years! A LOT has happened since then - At the end of the day it wasn't the counselors who helped me or healed me, it was ME who helped me and healed me. Knowing that OCD is about control, that really did bring me comfort to know that it was ME who had control over ME and no one else. Which meant that I could either continue to live with OCD as my conjoined twin, or I could cut her off of me & finally be free. Lucinda's program was truly my anchor & mentor as I learned about who I was, how I got to where I was with the OCD/Panic attacks/self talk & as I learned about that I began learning about other areas of my life - the branches of knowledge continued to grow & grow & as crazy odd as this may sound I could actually feel my mind getting stronger - and that's really amazing thing to experience. I have been panic attack free for just over 2 years now. There were many times where even reading an OCD help book scared me, or going to lucinda bassetts website forums to talk to others - I couldn't go there for the longest of time b/c EVERYTHING I read freaked me out. However, slowly (at times very slowly) I began moving just a little, then crawling just a little & eventually I learned how to run again.

Take hope in the fact that this doesn't have to last forever, that you really can heal from this & one day you'll look back & be thankful (I know don't hit me, I wanted to hit the person who said it to me too) for the experiences you have had with OCD & all that accompanies it. One day, before you know it you'll be talking to someone who needs your help & you'll be able to because you've overcome it.
:bighug:

Joined: 06/04/11
Posts: 2
Thank you!

Thank you so much, Julia! I appreciate your encouragement. It means a lot to me. I will look into Lucinda's program. It may lead to a breakthrough. It is so nice having someone believe in my potential of healing. These thoughts are annoying and really dominating. I do think it is about control... you made a good point with that! I will let you know how things come along and "when" I figure out how to get out of this OCD trap. Thank you so much, again, for reaching out to me.

Anne

Joined: 03/16/15
Posts: 53852

How are you doing?

motorjunkie89's picture
Joined: 06/03/10
Posts: 143

I have a problem with my OCD even more now that I have Ivybeth. Things just have to be done the way I like them done so I hate having other people help me do things. When it comes to her, sometimes when she doesn't want to adhere to her normal schedule, it sets me into a tizzy.

Chimmy's picture
Joined: 08/03/01
Posts: 2776

Anne ~ It's been a few months, but if your still checking in I'd love to hear an update!

Motorjunkie ~ How are things going with you?

Joined: 01/11/12
Posts: 43

I love this thread as I suffered after the birth of my DS4.
Had the most scariest instrusive thoughts all started one day when I went to wind my baby he was 3 weeks old I went to put a cloth on his mouth to wipe off some milk and got a thought in my head to suffocate him with it. Of course I absolutely paniced thought I wanted to harm my baby and thats what set me off on a huge downward spiral got to the point where I couldnt even hear someone say my babies name without getting a feeling of dread and panic go right through me was awful I have no idea how I managed to get through the first year of his life I was constantly on alert couldnt sleep or eat properly didnt want to be left alone with the baby or any of my children for that matter I actually believed I was going mad Sad
my life turned round the moment I found a website called anxiety no more couldnt believe it when I read the symptoms and realised thats what had happened to me along with OCD. Life slowly got better for me recovery wasnt instant since his birth ive had 2 more babies and each time it has been there and reared its ugly head but I know how to deal with it now. I know the thoughts are not real they are exaggerated thoughts magnified because I suffer with anxiety and anxiety causes too much adrenaline and the adrenaline needs an outlet and finds that by turning into strange intrusive thoughts. Understanding whats happening and why is a huge key into recovering and also just accepting it and not trying to rid yourself of it which is what I always tried to do. Diet and lifestyle can also make a huge difference to your over all well being. Its such a taboo subject and I wish all moms who suffer would speak about it alot more if id have known what was happening and why back then I wouldnt have let myself get so scared and into a downward spiral. Im glad to see this thread even though its horrible to do others are suffering its nice to know you arent alone and there is help and advice out there Smile