Where is that transparency we were PROMISED?

[Lisa P]

Originally Posted by BigBellyBuddha

Thank you.

and



so he promised and he lied

See, now I can personally get behind the argument the health care debate has been more secretive than it was promised to be. I agree the promise to be transparent there has taken a back burner to Obama wanting to get legislation through efficiently. I think that's a better argument than a meeting schedule.

Although I stand by my previous remarks that open forum discussions with the press present have been worthless, there is no denying Obama has changed gears. Was it a lie or was it him realizing how pointless it was to stay on that path if anything was to get done?

To me, the issue is more with Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid. They aren't committed to transparency in the least. And these midnight votes are disgusting. I think Obama still wants transparency. I think he was naive in thinking Congress would jump on board.

[BigBellyBuddha]

Originally Posted by Lisa P

See, now I can personally get behind the argument the health care debate has been more secretive than it was promised to be. I agree the promise to be transparent there has taken a back burner to Obama wanting to get legislation through efficiently. I think that's a better argument than a meeting schedule.

Although I stand by my previous remarks that open forum discussions with the press present have been worthless, there is no denying Obama has changed gears. Was it a lie or was it him realizing how pointless it was to stay on that path if anything was to get done?

To me, the issue is more with Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid. They aren't committed to transparency in the least. And these midnight votes are disgusting. I think Obama still wants transparency. I think he was naive in thinking Congress would jump on board.

Obama is the "boss" and has stated the buck stops with him, He says one thing and then does the complete opposite. Is he purposely lying? time will tell.

[Lisa P]

Originally Posted by BigBellyBuddha

Obama is the "boss" and has stated the buck stops with him, He says one thing and then does the complete opposite. Is he purposely lying? time will tell.

Not the boss. He is the leader of a democracy. If he were a dictator he could give orders the legislature would have to follow. There are limitations to his control and power. That's the great thing about America.

That said, he could certainly make a stink about the actions of Congress instead of indulging them so the legislation he wants passes. Obama, to me, is more naive than he is a liar. IMO, that is one way he has really come up short. He had so much support from the American people. There was a time when he could have called on the American public to demand Congress live up to his expectations. He's given up some of his power and influence by not engaging the American public in that manner once in office.

[summerblue]

Originally Posted by BigBellyBuddha

so he promised and he lied

Originally Posted by Lisa P

To me, the issue is more with Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid. They aren't committed to transparency in the least. And these midnight votes are disgusting. I think Obama still wants transparency. I think he was naive in thinking Congress would jump on board.

Yes, I agree with Lisa. Obama did not lie. He is not the boss of Congress and the House of Reps. He cannot dictate to them what to do. So, no matter how much he wants meetings to be on CSPAN, he does not control them.

Originally Posted by BigBellyBuddha

Obama is the "boss" and has stated the buck stops with him, He says one thing and then does the complete opposite. Is he purposely lying? time will tell.

But he is not their boss. How can you think he is? He cannot call them up and tell them to open up the meetings. He can only ask. So, you are barking up the wrong tree here and blaming the wrong person. He is an easy scapegoat, I will grant you that, but he is not at fault here.

[BigBellyBuddha]

Originally Posted by Lisa P

That said, he could certainly make a stink about the actions of Congress instead of indulging them so the legislation he wants passes. Obama, to me, is more naive than he is a liar. IMO, that is one way he has really come up short. He had so much support from the American people. There was a time when he could have called on the American public to demand Congress live up to his expectations. He's given up some of his power and influence by not engaging the American public in that manner once in office.

So do you think he will make a stink that his wishes are not being honored when the Republican's take back over Congress in the 2010?

[summerblue]

Originally Posted by BigBellyBuddha

So do you think he will make a stink that his wishes are not being honored when the Republican's take back over Congress in the 2010?

So, is this all a big conspiracy in your mind? He made promises he is not keeping and will only try to make good on them to start trouble when Dems are no longer in control of Congress?

[BigBellyBuddha]

Originally Posted by summerblue

So, is this all a big conspiracy in your mind? He made promises he is not keeping and will only try to make good on them to start trouble when Dems are no longer in control of Congress?

No, in my mind it shows he is afraid of his own party. It shows they tell him what to do and when to do it.

[summerblue]

Originally Posted by BigBellyBuddha

No, in my mind it shows he is afraid of his own party. It shows they tell him what to do and when to do it.

That is an unusual take on things. Has there ever been a president who could dictate to Congress and they followed his dictates? Can you cite some examples so I can compare?

[BigBellyBuddha]

Originally Posted by summerblue

That is an unusual take on things. Has there ever been a president who could dictate to Congress and they followed his dictates? Can you cite some examples so I can compare?

I said "stand up" to, not dictate.

[Lisa P]

Originally Posted by BigBellyBuddha

So do you think he will make a stink that his wishes are not being honored when the Republican's take back over Congress in the 2010?

If that happens, he may. It's true to form for politics in general. You may remember Bush failed to get some key legislation through when the Republicans were in control and then made a stink when the balance of power shifted to Dems. Remember the legislation designed to curb what was believed to be reckless habits of Fannie & Freddie that McCain was pushing for too. Of course, the Reps weren't filibuster proof at the time.

Originally Posted by BigBellyBuddha

No, in my mind it shows he is afraid of his own party. It shows they tell him what to do and when to do it.

I do think he is caving to Reid and Pelosi more than he should be. I don't get it. Pelosi is NOT a popular Speaker. I personally don't know any Pelosi fans. Many think her actions during the bailout proceedings made what was initially a collaborative effort, divisive.

I have an aside and I'm not sure if it belongs here. We'll see if I can make it part of this discussion. If it's too much of a tangent, let me know.

I'm wondering if the anger from Conservatives rests in the lies Obama is supposedly telling or the lack of reaction they feel from the Dems? Is the frustration in Obama not holding true to his word or in what appears to be hypocrisy since so many Dems (well, some Reps too) were upset with Bush?

I can see a degree of hypocrisy, but I have to admit I can't find the motivation to get riled up about Obama lying, lets say he indeed told big fat ones, about the openness of health care meetings. Disappointment is something I can feel. Charged up anger takes a bit more. Not because I like being lied to, but it's human nature to curb our reaction to things over time. We become numb to various degrees of things and it takes more to inspire a reaction. Think about violent and sexual content on television. Our tolerance for it has grown through the years. Things that would have bothered us before simply don't register. I think the same can be said in terms of lies from politicians. After experiencing doozies like Clinton coughed out and lies such as Cheney knowingly giving the impression for years that Hussein was involved in the 9/11 attacks, or all of the claims about WMD, lying about the openness of proceedings gives me more of an oh hum reaction. Now, if it turned out he'd lied about his citizenship and that the evidence of it was clear and indisputable, that would get a big reaction out of me. It would be up there on the shock scale.