Help needed!! Lurkers welcome!!M/c mentioned

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Lizbet22's picture
Joined: 04/01/09
Posts: 2859
Help needed!! Lurkers welcome!!M/c mentioned

Hi ladies!

Can you help.
I just had a distraught text from a friend of mine.
She has been trying for no 2 for a year now. She sadly had a miscarriage over summer and has had light af and very irregular cycles.
She has pcos and has finally been referred tona gynae.
Thing is she is seeing a herbalist as well and he has put the fear up her.
He said that sometimes when having a d and c it can remove too much lining and that the lining never grows back and that this would tie in to her light periods and long cycles etc.
I myself have never heard if this.
She is distraught.
Is he scare mongering or us this actually Proved.
I can't find anything online about it.
I am cross that he has upset her so much!!!
Thanks for any info.
Xxxxx

girlisrad's picture
Joined: 04/24/07
Posts: 1587

"Lizbet22" wrote:

Hi ladies!

Can you help.
I just had a distraught text from a friend of mine.
She has been trying for no 2 for a year now. She sadly had a miscarriage over summer and has had light af and very irregular cycles.
She has pcos and has finally been referred tona gynae.
Thing is she is seeing a herbalist as well and he has put the fear up her.
He said that sometimes when having a d and c it can remove too much lining and that the lining never grows back and that this would tie in to her light periods and long cycles etc.
I myself have never heard if this.
She is distraught.
Is he scare mongering or us this actually Proved.
I can't find anything online about it.
I am cross that he has upset her so much!!!
Thanks for any info.
Xxxxx

I am no expert Love, but that does not sound right. What multiple D&C's CAN do is cause scarring. Scarring will prevent a pregnancy from implanting properly... I honestly cannot answer for the lining issue. Perhaps this is what he was talking about?

DrakePlusOne's picture
Joined: 06/29/09
Posts: 1889

:lurk:

Hmmm, I have no clue about studies/statistics, but I had a d/c and had 4 pregnancies after; 2 were births. I got preggo with DS1 about 2 years after it. HTH

Lizbet22's picture
Joined: 04/01/09
Posts: 2859

I know about the scarring and such... But what he said to her basically imPlied that a d and c could cause infertility due to lining!!
I am contemPlating calling him and having words.
She is so so upset!
She said she was told a d and c was completely safe as well.
I said no to that.. That's why we sign a disclaimer but to say what he said.
Disgusted I am.
People should get their facts straight!!
Thanks girls.
Xxxxx

carissar's picture
Joined: 06/22/07
Posts: 212

That does not sound right.......Your lining is a result of hormones that cause the build up. Yes, a D&C might cause scarring, but that is a whole other issue. If lining is her problem there are lots of things that can be done to fluff it up. Taking estrogen right before Oing, or even drinking Red rasberry leaf tea. This cycle that has me preg with my little princess, my lining was an issue. It was only at 4 mm when it should at least be at 9 I took a double dose of estrogen and drank red rasberry leaf tea like it was my job , and it fluffed up to 11 mm in 2 days, which is excellent. Sounds like this herbalist is a fear monger.......

MissyJ's picture
Joined: 01/31/02
Posts: 3212

Liz,

Am I understanding you correctly that a herbalist told her that? :violent2:

I am so sorry -- first for your friend's loss; next that she had to go through a D & C; that she then gets diagnosed with PCOS and finally that some _______(fill in your favorite expletive) doesn't try to HELP her by offering her a gloom and doom scenario? What the heck???

I'm absolutely NOT a medical expert... but I would suggest that even IF there was even a grain of truth to what he suggested, what possible 'benefit" would he believe dropping that type of NON-MEDICALLY INFORMED diagnosis would be to her? As an herbalist what is his intent? To sell her stuff for the UNFOUNDED anxiety that he's caused?

Argh...... sorry. I don't blame you for being upset. I loathe those that do not have a person's personal medical history, full work-up and testing results available handing out diagnosis based upon fear-mongering.

My suggestion to your friend -- do her best to relax. Read up some more on PCOS. Those likely will offer enough of an explanation that will enable her to formulate what questions and concerns she has with her DOCTOR when she sees him/her. I'm including a few links from here that can help.

I cannot say with 100% certainty any impact of her D & C has had -- but I CAN share that our site is filled with users such as the one above that did go through it as well and later went on to have other pregnancies.... including those make it to term.

Encourage her to focus on the PCOS and taking steps to up her fertility chances. We'd love to have her share her journey with us now so we can help offer our support but if not now -- definitely once she is celebrating her BFP!

((((((HUGS)))))) Thanks for being such a great friend!

~Missy (see a few articles below)

PCOS (Polyscystic Ovarian Syndrome)

You CAN Get Pregnant with PCOS

Lizbet22's picture
Joined: 04/01/09
Posts: 2859

Thank you so so much ladies.
I have text her with all the info of this thread or rather on how to find it so she can read up.
I really hope she joins here.
I believe she needs as much support as possible.
We've been friends since we were 17 and she's on of the most amazing women I know!!!
Thank you so much.

Xxxxxx

Lizbet22's picture
Joined: 04/01/09
Posts: 2859

O.. I should say she was diagnosed with pcos before she fell with her son.
Xxxxx

FLSunshineMom's picture
Joined: 06/07/06
Posts: 3859

I agree with the others, Liz, that doesn't sound right to me, either. Sounds like that herbalist might have been confusing the herbs he was taking that day for a certain "weed." (:ROFL: Sorry, couldn't resist :D)

So sorry for your friend having to endure that. Send a hug her way for me.

mom2robbie's picture
Joined: 01/20/07
Posts: 2541

If she wants to talk to someone with severe pcos and everything else that I have gone through send her my way.

Lizbet22's picture
Joined: 04/01/09
Posts: 2859

Mel asked me to thank you all and she will pop over today to read what you have said.
Hopefully shee will join too.
I really appreciate all your help and offers of support.
I know she does too.
Thank you.
You are awesome.
Xxxx

Joined: 04/09/06
Posts: 1244

I agree with everything that has been posted. You can do things to boost your "fluff" of your lining. It is likely her PCOS issues could be creating her lining issues. Also, while I am certainly not a medical professional qualified to provide any real medical advice, it is important to remember that PCOS creates issues with ovulation. If you do not ovulate, you will have irregular and long cycles. You may have light bleeding that seems like periods, but really it is not because you cannot have a true period unless you ovulate...mostly because your whole cycle is dictated by your ovaries and hormones, which when you suffer with PCOS, your ovaries are somewhat compromised and are not doing what they need to do to make sure your hormones are functioning correctly. Plus, the cysts create other issue as well. So, it is important for your friend to consider what the side effects of PCOS really are and how that relates to her ability to conceive. I highly recommend the book, "The Infertility Cure." It really does have some good holistic/natural/herbal suggestions for PCOS, including cutting out refined carbs and sugars, which are implicated in making PCOS worse.

Lizbet22's picture
Joined: 04/01/09
Posts: 2859

That's aigret response thank you.
She is due a hsg. I think she had to call today about it.
Would an hsg be able to tell anything about pcos.
She's not sure she does have issues with lining won't know until tests are done... Think she was describing her cycles etc to the herbalist and he saud what he said.
I winder if the pcos has got a bit worse as when she was diagnosed it was very mild.

She sends her thanks.
Thinks you all sound great.
Girl power she says.
But not sure if she will join as she only uses computer at work and this dire isn't one she could sneak on really.
Hoping I can change her mind or at least link her on Facebook to some of you.
Xxx

clio's picture
Joined: 11/05/07
Posts: 590

Just to add my own two cents--I call BS just like the others. I was in a situation very similar to hers--PCOS, long, irregular cycles and virtually no period, which started around a year and a half ago. Yes, it was a lining issue, but it was actually a secondary problem. After talking to an RE, he explained that the lining had everything to do with the quality of the egg I was producing, which appeared to be compromised by low estrogen. He said that it looked like my PCOS had stepped it up a few notches, and my hormones were even more out of whack than usual.

Injectables are what helped me--at the time of my BFP, my lining was 11 mm!

Good luck to her, and shame on that naturopath!

Joined: 02/23/12
Posts: 3
Thank you

Hi ladies,

I'm Liz's friend who she posted the query about. Thank you all so much for all your support and advice.

To be honest, I'm so confused about the whole thing at the moment that I feel like I'm going round in circles. I took the decision at the beginning of the year that I was going to try every option open to me so that I didn't feel like I had missed out on the chance of anything working. With that in mind I'm currently trying acupuncture, herbalism and homeopathy as well as conventional medicine. I'm also trying to exercise and eat properly (the exercise is going well, the eating isn't!).

As well as the PCOS I've also got Type 1 diabetes which I've had for 23 years and which obviously doesn't help matters. Having said that though, all the hormone tests that I've had done have always come back within the "normal" range although I do have several of the typical PCOS symptoms. I conceived my son (now 3 and a half) the moment that we started trying and my second pregnancy was conceived within a couple of months as well (sadly that was the one that I lost). It just seems weird that now it all seems to have stopped. My periods have always been very irregular and, as Liz mentioned, have been incredibly light since the d and c which worries me. Since the miscarriage we've been trying for about 8 months now with no success at all and I'm just trying to determine whether it's just "one of those things" (as a lot of people keep telling me) or whether there is actually something wrong. I'm on the waiting list for an HSG (which I'm a bit nervous about) which may be happening in a few days time or which I may have to wait longer for, I should know tomorrow. If that comes back all clear then I will start taking Clomid and see if that helps. So far I haven't been able to have any Day 21 blood tests to determine ovulation as I haven't been able to determine when exactly Day 21 is! Day 5 blood tests all came back fine as did my husband's sperm test. Diabetes management isn't too bad although I would like it to be better (although that's always the case). My age is a concern - I'm 40 this year.

Can't think of anything else to tell you really other than that I will take your advice with the raspberry leaf tea. I guess I need to ask my consultant about the oestrogen before ovulation? Silly question but, if this helps to thicken the lining, does this show in heavier periods? What tests have you all had to do to show the thickness of the lining? If my periods are light, does this automatically indicate fertility issues?

Margaret - I was really interested in your post as, not only did you mention PCOS but you had a Diabetes link on your signature as well.

Hope I haven't rambled on but thank you again for your support. Liz speaks to highly of you all and I think that it's a great network that you have.

All the best to you all,

Melissa

Lizbet22's picture
Joined: 04/01/09
Posts: 2859

Fab to see you joined sweets.
Pretty sure the ladies will be even mire help.
Just don't make me redundant from my ask dr Liz texts. Lol
Let me know about the hsg.
I can take you if I am nit working f or look after L again if I am not working.
Hugs.
Xxxxxx

Joined: 04/09/06
Posts: 1244

Hi Mel! It is nice to see you! I want to specify that I am not a doctor and cannot really give actual medical advice, but I am going to provide what knowlede I do have after struggling with infertility for 3 years and working hard to figure out my issues.

I think it is important to see if you can somehow get blood work done right before ovulation and again about 7 days after ovulation. Day 21 tests really won't show anything if you ovulated earlier or later than day 14. Most OBs pick day 21 because on average most women ovulate on day 14 and you can get a good progesterone reading by day 21. However, many of us are not average and it is important to get an O2 reading right before you O...during your surge...and again 7 days after O to get that progesterone. It is hard to figure that out. My RE made me track everything with ovulation prediction kits. If you are not producing enough estrogen, you will not have a thick lining or a good quality egg. As a matter of fact, without enough estrogen, you may not even ovulate regularly. Hormones dictate your fertility. My hormones are really out of sync, and my RE said that clomid would not help with that issue. So, we went straight to injections of FSH. And to answer your question, if you have a thicker lining, you will have heavier periods.

The HSG is going to tell you if your fallopian tubes are open and working. While it can be a worthwhile test if your tubes are not proven, you have had two pregnancies and one live birth. My thought is that your tubes are fine. When I was in the heat of infertility craziness, I felt like I should rule it out. However, it was grand waste of of money. My tubes were just fine.

We were finally able to conceive after I cut out all refined sugar and flour, took several herbs and supplements, and used FSH injections to help get my hormones in the correct place. It took some trial and error. If you are not with an RE, I recommend looking for one. They will be able to help you formulate a good treatment plan.

Also, with my miscarriage, we conceived on the first cycle of TTC. I never would have guessed that I had fertility issues. My RE was very clear that he believed that it was my fertility issues that caused the miscarriage. I did not have good quality eggs because I was not producing enough estrogen and the egg probably did not implant well. In addition, all the hormones dictate the levels in each other. Low estrogen will mean low progesterone because you are not producing good follicles. The follicles produce the progesterone until implantation is fully complete. So, even if I did conceive, I did not have anough progesterone production to sustain a pregnancy.

So, there is some of what I know based on my experience. Fertility issues and navigating the world of fertility treatment can be very overwhelming. I will hope that you can figure everything out and quickly conceive. :bigarmhug:

mom2robbie's picture
Joined: 01/20/07
Posts: 2541

Hi Mel

I don't have a lot of time to post right now...off to work in a few minutes but I will tell you a few things that I know.

I was diagnosed with PCOS at 16, I am now 42. I was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes at 31. It took 5 years to conceive our son - I got my positive the day before my appointment for fertility drugs. It took another 5 years to conceive Bailey who I lost last year at 11 weeks. Since that time my periods have been super heavy - never had them this heavy in my life.

I found that with my hsg (done at the same time as endometriosis surgery) that I was pregnant within a month. My doctor said that is quite normal. Chances are that your tubes are clear - mine were, but the extra flush was great for getting things going.

You mentioned you have several of the PCOS symptoms - what are they? That might help in knowing what is going on with your body.

Welcome to our group. We hope you get pregnant soon.

Margaret

mom2robbie's picture
Joined: 01/20/07
Posts: 2541

duplicate post

clio's picture
Joined: 11/05/07
Posts: 590

I would really stay away from the Clomid. It actually thins your lining! Can you see if you can take Femara or Tamoxifen instead? Femara is known to thicken your lining (though not in every case).

Again, if you have access to and can pay for injectable fertility drugs, I'd go straight to them.

Joined: 02/23/12
Posts: 3

Hi Margaret,

Thank you for this. I'm sorry for your loss as well.

The PCOS was diagnosed about 6-7 years ago with me but I suspect that I've always had it as my periods have always been very irregular. It didn't really bother me until the question of conceiving came into the equation. My symptoms are a very unpredictable cycle (since I've been keeping track of it, it's ranged from 31-48 days), excess hair growth and skin tags. My periods have always been on the lightish side but, since the d and c last summer, they have been much lighter which is causing me concern. My last period lasted for about 2 days. Whenever I've had hormone tests done, they've come back within the normal ranges which I've been told is unusual for someone with PCOS. I've never had a Day 21 test done though. My two pregnancies have been conceived quickly despite all this.

In addition I've had Type 1 diabetes since I was 15 (so for 24 years - I'm 39 now). I'm not particularly overweight but I'm at the top end of the "acceptable" scale so I could do with losing a bit. My HbA1c is 60 (which I think is about 7.8 in the old scale - I'm not sure if you use the same scales in Canada) - not terrible but could do better. I'm finding my diabetes a bit hard to manage at the moment - I get terrible cravings for sweet things which really isn't helping matters.

The date for my hsg has been confirmed as next Monday morning which I guess is lucky as it's been so quick (probably because of my age). I'm not really expecting to find any issues with my tubes as I've fallen pregnant twice before but I guess that it would show up any damage caused by the d and c if that was the case. I guess it's worth doing although obviously frustrating that we won't be able to ttc this month.

I hope I'm not rambling? Many thanks for your help.

All the best,

Melissa

Joined: 02/23/12
Posts: 3

Thanks for the advice too Melnzai and Clio. I guess I need to talk to the consultant I saw about the issues with using Clomid if it thins the lining further. I forgot to tell her that I had concerns about this - it was such a quick appointment.

Melnzai - sorry to sound ignorant but what's an RE please? Sorry, I'm not particularly knowledgeable about terminology at the moment. Would you be able to tell me what herbs and supplements you took?

Many thanks,

Melissa

mom2robbie's picture
Joined: 01/20/07
Posts: 2541

Mel,

For diabetes we use the old scale - your levels seem ok to me - my doc always says 4-8 feeling great. Mine are generally very controlled at 5.4-5.6.

RE - is reproductive endocrinologist, specialized fertility doctor

I just had my first 21 day test, they have always just gone on the 3 day test...don't know the results as they have been sent to the fertility clinic that I am on the waiting list for. I am hoping it is not too much longer.

I have had a lot of friends use raspberry leaf tea and it seemed to help them but I know nothing about it.

Hopefully your hsg goes well on monday.

Hugs

Margaret

tacie's picture
Joined: 07/06/09
Posts: 332

"Lizbet22" wrote:

Hi ladies!

Can you help.
I just had a distraught text from a friend of mine.
She has been trying for no 2 for a year now. She sadly had a miscarriage over summer and has had light af and very irregular cycles.
She has pcos and has finally been referred tona gynae.
Thing is she is seeing a herbalist as well and he has put the fear up her.
He said that sometimes when having a d and c it can remove too much lining and that the lining never grows back and that this would tie in to her light periods and long cycles etc.
I myself have never heard if this.
She is distraught.
Is he scare mongering or us this actually Proved.
I can't find anything online about it.
I am cross that he has upset her so much!!!
Thanks for any info.
Xxxxx

Hey there girlie
I don't think the herbalist was advising to scare your friend but what he said was true
Is there a person who does tummy massages in your area? If so, get your friend to go to see them after AF and before Oing ~ it will help get oxygenated blood back into and around her uterius. Some castor oil on her tummy with flannel rag and a hot water bottle ontop that will help reduce any inflammation in her uterius and help her body with scar tissue. I am going to school right now to learn more about this and helping other women heal from D&C damages as well as reduction of painful menstration.
You or your friend can send me a private message via email if you wish ~ my email is: [email]countryhealthwellness@gmail.com[/email]
Just me sure to let me know it's you in the subject line, so I don't delete thinking your message is junk mail

tacie's picture
Joined: 07/06/09
Posts: 332

"mom2robbie" wrote:

Mel,

For diabetes we use the old scale - your levels seem ok to me - my doc always says 4-8 feeling great. Mine are generally very controlled at 5.4-5.6.

RE - is reproductive endocrinologist, specialized fertility doctor

I just had my first 21 day test, they have always just gone on the 3 day test...don't know the results as they have been sent to the fertility clinic that I am on the waiting list for. I am hoping it is not too much longer.

I have had a lot of friends use raspberry leaf tea and it seemed to help them but I know nothing about it.

Hopefully your hsg goes well on monday.

Hugs

Margaret

Red Raspberry Tea is awesome to help your uterius replenish and strenghen -- it also helps kickstart your cycle if you're overdue when mixed with parsley tea

Lizbet22's picture
Joined: 04/01/09
Posts: 2859

Hi Hun
Thanks.

Just so you know her hsg was all clear no scarring or anything.

Dud you mean to type that what the guy said was true.
That d and c can cause scarring that means the lining will never grow back.

I have scarring myself and am waiting on a pp to remove it.
Granted where the scarring is things can't implant. But when removed it's all good again.
Xxxxxx